Public Bodies: Appointees' Arrangements (Hansard, 1 July 1993)

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Wakeham)
My Lords, the amount of time chairmen and members of government bodies are expected to work varies according to the appointment. Although some appointments are full time, the majority are part time, with the commitment ranging from several days a week to a day a month or less.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Leader of the House for that reply. I am referring to members of the board and not to professional officers. Do those people sign a contract stating how many days or hours work they will put in? If they do, who makes sure that they hold to that contract, bearing in mind that in a Written Answer given in Hansard for another place on Monday of this week it was indicated that in one regional health authority alone 120 places had been created on new quangos as a result of the Government setting up the new National Health trust hospitals? One can multiply that figure by 14—which is the number of regions—to establish the total number of about 1,400 people appointed to the new quangos. Some of them are receiving substantial salaries. Can the noble Lord give an undertaking that those appointees carry out the functions for which they are paid, bearing in mind some of the disasters which have just taken place in Wessex, the West Midlands and the London Ambulance Service?

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, first, I should like to say that I believe that the House and the nation should be grateful for the time and effort many distinguished people give to serving on public bodies, often at no little cost to themselves. Secondly, I do not know whether they actually sign a piece of paper in the form of a contract. But I know this. Ministers satisfy themselves that those whom they appoint have sufficient time to devote to the appointment, given their other commitments and appointments. That factor is taken into account in each individual case. It is for the Minister to satisfy himself on that aspect.
926 On the third point, a considerable number of people are appointed to those bodies. The majority are part time and unpaid. The information at 1st September 1992—that is the last figure—is that there are some 41,000 appointments over the whole range of public life. There are now 1,412 bodies to which those appointments are made compared with 2,167 in 1979.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I am rather surprised that the Minister referred to people giving voluntary service and making sacrifices. Is he aware of the recently published statistics for the two national health trust units in Leeds? The new professional head receives £75,000 a year, and some directors have apportioned themselves an annual salary averaging £55,000 each. That means that Leeds now has two national health trusts which cost nearly £1 million to run before anyone sticks a plaster on anybody. Is that what the health service is coming to? Are we not creating a dangerous situation if we allow such costs to continue? Knowing the noble Lord the Leader of the House, I am surprised at his complacency.

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, I gave the facts: that the majority of those appointments are unpaid and voluntary. I believe that the nation is right to be grateful to those who serve in that way. Of course, some appointments are paid and the Ministers satisfy themselves that those people are paid properly and are able to do the duties involved. With that number of appointments I cannot imagine that there are not some people who are not up to standard. But it is for the Minister to deal with the matter in the appropriate way.

The Earl of Haisbury
My Lords, having occupied both positions referred to in the noble Lord's Question, perhaps I may say that the workload was carefully outlined and explained to me in advance of my accepting the appointment. Thereafter I did my best to keep to the ten-ns of my obligation with professional integrity.

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for the endorsement from his experience of what I believe to be the position.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, for some reason the noble Lord the Leader of the House made a comparison with the circumstances in 1979. Will he place in the Library of the House not only the number of people, and the number of quangos, but also the amount paid to those people? When he makes that information available, I believe he will find that there is a substantial contrast which is not to the advantage of the present Government.

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, I shall certainly place in the Library all the information that I have readily available. If the noble Lord is not satisfied with the information, no doubt he will get in touch with me.

§ Lord Montagu of Beaulieu
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that when I became Chairman of English Heritage I signed an agreement to work two days a week? In fact I worked four days.

Lord Wakeharn
My Lords, the nation is grateful to my noble friend for the service that he gave during that time. I believe that it is not untypical of what a number of people do.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that evidence is accumulating, in particular with regard to the National Health Service, which indicates that the new administrative steps taken by the Government have resulted in inefficient, so-called businessmen running the health service in many areas? They are paid extortionate salaries while useful medical personnel, in particular nurses, are being discharged.

Lord Wakeharn
My Lords, I believe that virtually every statistic that anyone can produce about the performance of the health service in recent years indicates that it is much better than at any time previously.

§ Lord Jenkins of Hillhead
My Lords, is the noble Lord the Leader of the House aware that we have reason to be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, for having signed a contract for two days and for having worked for four days? Some of us believe that it might be better if his successor had signed a contract to work for four days and had worked for two days.

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, makes his point. Without in any way wishing to detract from the contribution of my noble friend, I do not believe that it was a fair point.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, perhaps I may refer to the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Bruce of Donington. As recently as this afternoon, I was in The Royal London Hospital. It is a new trust hospital. The comments that he has just made seem to me to be as unfounded, wide of the mark, unfair and damaging to morale as they could be.

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, I attributed the noble Lord's remarks to the devotion with which he has attended a recent measure before this House. It may have made him a little less balanced in his judgment on these matters.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the House treats the matter with understandable levity. Does he recognise that there is now real anxiety about the accountability of quangos? Excluding the health service, they now account for no less than 20 per cent. of all public spending. A managing director can be ousted by the board and is responsible to the shareholders. A local authority councillor is responsible to the local electorate. Ministers presumably can be sacked by the Prime Minister. Who sacks people from quangos if they do not do the job? Is it only the Minister? If so, can the Leader of the House tell us how many people have been sacked recently for incompetence?

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, I cannot give the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition the figure of how many have been sacked. A number have resigned. A number have left over the years. People appointed to 928 those boards are responsible to Ministers; and Ministers are responsible to Parliament. That is a very strong chain of responsibility which I believe serves the public interest well.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I am pleased to inform the Minister, should he not already be aware, that later this month I shall ask a Question on a similar subject. Will he then produce the figures of appointments to quangos which are salaried as well as saying how many are voluntary and receive no pay?

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord that if he has put down a Question, I shall answer it to the best of my ability.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, the Minister stated that he will be prepared to produce figures. Will he also produce an estimate of the amount that the Government paid with regard to those posts when they were local government appointments? Will he compare those figures with the present cost?

§ Lord Wakeham
My Lords, if the noble Lord wishes to frame such a Question I shall do my best to answer it. However, I do not believe that the question that he asked is capable of an absolutely rational answer.