London Underground: Funding (Hansard, 25 February 1993)

The Minister of State, Department of Transport (The Earl of Caithness)
My Lords, we have no plans to review London Transport's 1993–94 grant settlement. Although some scaling down of the plans announced in 1991 has been necessary in response to the tight public expenditure situation generally, the current settlement allows for levels of investment in the Underground higher than at any point in the 1970s or 1980s.

§ Lord Jay
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the chairman of London Underground gives a very different account of what is happening? At a time when London's travellers are suffering repeated delays as a result of the cuts made in the past five years, would it not be highly damaging to make a further cut (as reported by the chairman of London Underground) of nearly 50 per cent. in the funding for maintenance and improvements which he has described as a drastic step backwards?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am not quite sure from where the noble Lord, Lord Jay, gets the word "cuts". In the past three years the investment of London Underground Ltd. has averaged about £450 million. This year it is at an all-time record, and next year we expect to invest about £500 million, with a further £600 million in 1995–96. I should have thought that that would be welcomed by the House.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend say whether there has been any day recently on which London Underground has not suffered an interruption to its services, either by reason of the failure of its signalling system or of its vehicles?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we appreciate that there are problems with London Underground that need to be tackled—and these are being tackled. As my noble friend will be aware from his visits to Angel station, that is a vastly improved station. The new trains on the Central Line will be a pleasure to travel in.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the report in this morning's edition of the Independent in which Mr. Tunnicliffe is quoted as saying that the old, sprawling, overcrowded and neglected Tube network needs another £8 billion-worth of investment just for modernisation, in addition to the money which is needed for the Jubilee Line, Crossrail and other such schemes, and that without such investment a decently modern metro is being pushed 20 years down the track?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I too have read the allegations of what somebody has said with regard to these matters. What is incontrovertible is that we 335 are now spending record sums in London Underground. Yes, there is a lot of work to do, but I agree with the noble Lord that we need to improve the metro system.

§ Baroness Platt of Writtle
My Lords, is my noble friend aware—

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords—

Noble Lords
Order!

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Wakeham)
My Lords, I believe that it should be the noble Baroness.

§ Baroness Platt of Writtle
My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the deterioration in the Circle Line, which serves this House, and of the need for investment?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, there are bound to be such examples and I am sure that all of your Lordships could point to examples. However, £750 million has been spent on the Central Line modernisation. There has been a £72 million rebuild of Angel station and a £170 million programme of train refurbishment is well under way. There has also been a tremendous improvement with regard to escalators and lifts. I remember my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter raising that point and I hope that he has noticed that an effort has been made to improve the service dramatically.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, further to the question that was put to the Minister by his noble friend the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, is the noble Earl aware that in the past few days there has been an outbreak of creeping signal sickness? It started between St. James's Park and Westminster. It moved up to between Westminster and Embankment, and yesterday it was last seen near Aldgate. Is the Minister aware that this outbreak seems rather unusual, and that something should be done about the proper upkeep and maintenance of the signalling system?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord's last sentence was right. Something needs to be done, and that is why we are spending record amounts of money on the problem.

§ Lord Jay
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the cut is in the present figure proposed for maintenance improvements in 1993–94 as compared with the promise for that year which was made in 1991 according to the chairman of London Underground?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, there has been a reduction in the mammoth amount of money that we are going to spend, but perhaps I may reassure the noble Lord that this year in real terms we are spending four and a half times what the Labour Government spent.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, is it not clear that the Minister is suggesting, in effect, that everything is all right in London Transport and London Underground when that is simply not the case? Is it not a fact that essential repairs are having to be 336 overlooked? Is it not the case that asbestos which needs to be removed cannot be removed due to the cuts in the investment programme which the Minister concedes? Is not such a situation absolutely scandalous for a capital city such as London?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord started by saying that I had given the impression that everything was all right, but he then went on to confirm that I had said that things need to be done. Clearly, the noble Lord contradicted himself. The point is that we are spending a record amount of money. We realise that there is a lot more to do, and I am sure that the management of London Underground will continue to do it.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, will the Minister accept from me that London Underground itself has declared its many priorities, and that the Jubilee Line is not one of those priorities? Before there is a final decision to go ahead with the Jubilee Line, will the Minister give some consideration to all the other faults on the Underground so that they can be rectified instead of London Underground going ahead with sustaining a commercial development that was all my eye in the first place?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, like the rest of the House, the noble Lord is up to date with regard to the current position on the Jubilee Line. However, perhaps I may advise him that, among the advantages that the Jubilee Line will bring, will be a reduction in the traffic and number of passengers on the other lines, which will ease the congestion.

§ Lord Sefton of Garston
My Lords, that line is still not one of London Underground's priorities.

Noble Lords
Order!

§ Lord Thurlow
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Bakerloo Line is being invaded by a plague of mice?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, now that the noble Lord has told me, yes.

§ Lord Ezra
My Lords, is the Minister familiar with the project for a decent modern metro which was referred to by my noble friend Lord Tordoff? Is he aware that London Underground has stated that, on the basis of the investment proposed in the 1991 Autumn Statement, such a system could have been built and provided to Londoners within 10 years, but that on the basis of the downwardly revised figures in the Autumn Statement of 1992, another 10 years will be added to the project?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I know of the document to which the noble Lord refers. However, we must all live within our means and, within the means of the public expenditure that is available, London Underground has had a very generous settlement, with a record amount this year and a substantial amount next year.