Appropriation (Northern Ireland) Order 1993

HL Deb 25 February 1993 vol 543 cc361-88

4.50 p.m.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office (The Earl of Arran) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 15th February be approved.

The noble Earl said: My Lords, this is one in a series of financial orders covering Northern Ireland departments which come before the House each year. The draft order before us today authorises expenditure of £80 million for Northern Ireland departments for the current financial year. That is in addition to the £5,014 million voted by the House last July. It also authorises the vote-on-account of £2,376 million for 1993–94, to enable the services of Northern Ireland departments to continue until the 1993–94 main estimates are brought before your Lordships later this year.

Before turning to the details of the estimates, I should like to set them in the context of the recent performance of the Northern Ireland economy. Although Northern Ireland generally mirrors the performance of the national economy, it is widely recognised that the local economy has held up well in the face of adverse national and global economic conditions. The economic downturn in Northern Ireland began later and has been less pronounced than in the rest of the UK. In the year to September 1992, there was a 1 per cent. decrease in local employment compared with a 3.3 per cent. fall nationally. Similarly, unemployment has shown an increase of 3,200 over the year to stand at 107,000 or 14.6 per cent. of the workforce in January 1993. That is a rise of only 0.4 per cent., compared with 1.4 per cent. in the UK as a whole. While none of us can afford to be complacent in the present harsh environment, those indicators provide solid evidence of the resilience of the Northern Ireland economy.

With your Lordships' permission, I now turn to the main items in the order, starting with the Department of Agriculture. In Vote 1, a token increase of £1,000 is required to reflect changes in the uptake of grants under capital grant schemes; £2 million is for additional commitments under the Agriculture and Horticulture Development Scheme. That is offset by reduced requirements under the Farm and Conservation Grant Scheme.

In Vote 2, various reallocations have been made within the vote. Those include a £0.2 million increase for fees to private veterinarians under the disease eradication programme; £0.37 million is for watercourse management, including flood protection works.

In the department of Economic Development, token increases are sought for four votes. In Vote 1, an additional £5.8 million is for new inward investment projects. That reflects the Industrial Development Board's success in attracting internationally competitive companies. A recent example is Pan European Textiles, which will create up to 500 jobs. A net increase of £5 million is for assistance to Short Brothers plc. That additional expenditure is offset by savings elsewhere in the vote, including lower than anticipated claims for industrial development grants. Assistance to Harland and Wolff Holdings plc shows a £7.8 million reduction, due to slippage on a contract. That will now fall to be paid in 1993–94.

In Vote 2, £1.7 million is for the Industrial Research and Technology Unit, which seeks to improve the competitiveness of local industry through increased research and development; £1 million is for assistance to the Northern Ireland tourist industry and £1 million for clearing the Ormeau Road gasworks site in Belfast. Those increases are offset by savings elsewhere in the vote.

In Vote 3, which covers the Training and Employment Agency, an additional £4.7 million is required to meet in full the demand for training places under the youth training programme. Offsetting savings have been found elsewhere in the vote. Finally, in the Department of Economic Development, provision is sought in Vote 4 to meet expenses incurred in the privatisation of the electricity supply industry in Northern Ireland. Those are being met from the proceeds of the sale of the generating stations earlier in the year.

I turn now to the Department of the Environment where, in Vote 1, a redistribution of resources has taken place within the roads programme. Some £0.7 million is required for minor roads schemes. In Vote 2, covering housing, additional net provision of £14.4 million is sought. Increases in the vote are offset by receipts of £3 million from sales under the co-ownership scheme and from housing association rents.

In Vote 3, £7.6 million is for capital expenditure on sewerage services. Increases in the vote are offset by reductions elsewhere and by increased receipts. In Vote 4 £2 million is for community economic regeneration schemes, which continue to be targeted at areas of social, economic and environmental need.

I now turn to the Department of Education. In Vote 1 a net increase of £7 million is sought; £6.2 million is for grants to education and library boards, including the increased cost of school teachers' salaries; £2.3 million is for voluntary grammar and grant-maintained integrated schools. I know that your Lordships continue to take a keen interest in the development of integrated education in Northern Ireland and will therefore be pleased to learn that there are now 18 integrated schools in operation, with a total of 3,300 pupils in attendance. In Vote 2, £1.8 million is sought for the increased uptake of student loans and an increase in the cost of postgraduate student awards.

For the Department of Health and Social Services, a net increase of £13.2 million is sought in Vote 1; £11.7 million is for the family health services, to meet increased costs in pharmaceutical and general dental services; £6.2 million is for increases in capital expenditure. Those increases are offset by increased receipts.

In Vote 3, additional net provision of £3 million is required. That includes £9.7 million for increased expenditure on housing benefit, rent allowances and rent and rates rebates. Those increases are offset by reductions elsewhere and by increased receipts of £5 million from the National Insurance Fund. Finally, in Vote 4, which covers social security, £40.4 million is sought to meet increases in the numbers receiving a wide range of benefits, including attendance and disability allowances and income support.

I hope that your Lordships have found this summary of the main components of the order to be of help. I commend the order to your Lordships.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 15th February be approved.—(The Earl of Arran.)

4.58 p.m.

Lord Blease

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his clear and comprehensive explanation of the appropriation order. Like all noble Lords, I attach crucial importance to the appropriation measures. They present a huge financial input to help the economic prosperity, the social equity and general wellbeing of the Northern Ireland people.

I have stated my view on many occasions when appropriation orders have been considered in this House. It is an unfortunate gap in the parliamentary democratic procedures that those public expenditure reports and papers are not openly considered and debated by representative thinking citizens in Northern Ireland. Any serious personal or corporate study of these collated plans, priorities and demands for government expenditure is sure to condition a mental approach to the need for careful deliberation rather than settling for shallow, phoney, personal, sectional or party propaganda. Any honest, critical pragmatic approach to these appropriation provisions must surely press personal faculties to rise above concepts of individual party power-sharing positions and raise them to positions which include more demanding and satisfying principles of responsibility and accountability.

It was a pleasure for me two days ago to see and hear on television the noble Earl, Lord Arran, who was standing in a very idyllic place, the Minnowburn Shallows, releasing some thousands of small salmon fry into the River Lagan. That river, I may tell your Lordships, has been without a salmon for over 100 years because of the stagnant water and long-term domestic and industrial pollution, together with impossible weirs built to serve industry. Stocking this river with salmon and with other river fish is an experiment which has been warmly received by the general community in Northern Ireland. It brings back life and hope to the polluted river and is a well worthwhile act. In the Northern Ireland context, perhaps it is much more. I would ask: is it not a practical demonstration of faith and hope, symbolic of the many hundreds of political, industrial, social and community work projects proceeding day by day in the Province? This is work undertaken with faith, hope and goodwill for the future, notwithstanding the somewhat socially soiled and politically polluted parts that prevent the clear, free flow of vibrant community life throughout the Province.

Turning to the appropriation order itself, I wish to raise a few points. It would be difficult across the Floor of the House to deal in precise terms with each item because a fair amount of explanation would be needed, but I should like to call attention to page 11, under the heading of Department of Finance and Personnel, Vote 1, and also to page 10, which refers to the Department of Health and Social Services. The establishment of a Voluntary Activity Unit is referred to, in which the Minister took part, and I quote from information which was released by the Northern Ireland Information Service on 22nd February. It states: The major contribution made by voluntary organisations and community groups to the quality of life in Northern Ireland was stressed today by the Secretary of State, Sir Patrick Mayhew MP. The Secretary of State, accompanied by Health Minister Lord Arran, was launching the Government's strategy document for the Support of the Voluntary Sector and for Community Development in Northern Ireland … The Secretary of State: 'There is also a wealth of talented and dedicated volunteers who liberally donate their time and effort, adding much to the quality and range of services available. We are committed to working in partnership with the voluntary sector and I believe that this new Strategy will make that partnership even more productive. For the first time, Government has a clearly defined strategy which acknowledges the contribution of the voluntary sector to many aspects of life in the Province, sets out the aims of Departments in supporting voluntary bodies, and indicates how Departments intend to develop good practice in administering their grant schemes'. The document announces that a new unit, to be called the Voluntary Activity Unit, is to be set up in the Department of Health and Social Services, to provide a clearly identified focal point for voluntary activity in Northern Ireland. In addition, the new Unit will assume lead responsibility on community development and provide the appropriate machinery for interdepartmental consideration of key issues in this field". I want to assure the noble Minister that the document which accompanied this statement has been very well received. However, I should like to put a few questions to him in order to get further clarification. I should like to ask him: when will the Voluntary Activity Unit be established? How is it intended to undertake the lead responsibility in any voluntary contacts? What provisions for support and efficiency scrutiny will the Voluntary Activity Unit provide to existing YTPs and similar schemes above what is already available under the Training and Employment Agency? One could also ask who, among all the departments which are to be brought together, is going to lead? I do not minimise in any way the importance of ensuring that voluntary efforts should be praised but of course they must be co-ordinated and their efforts should be scrutinised.

Turning to the Council for Nature Conservation and the Countryside, which would come under the Department of the Environment Vote, I quote from an article which was published on 19th February, when a special conference was held in connection with the Council for Nature Conservation and the Countryside. It states: The Government is giving less support to conservation work in Northern Ireland than in Scotland and Wales, it was claimed today. Professor Palmer Newbould, chairman of the Council for Nature Conservation and the Countryside, said, 'I firmly believe the DoE Environment Service does not have the resources needed to discharge its statutory function in conserving the heritage of Northern Ireland and in fulfilling the Government's international commitments'. It continues: Professor Newbould said the council shared the view of the Minister that there should be a radical review of the relationship between environmental and economic policy in Northern Ireland. I should like to ask the Minister: is such a review being considered and, if so, when will its terms of reference be made known?

Turning now to economic and industrial development and unemployment, the Minister—and I agree with him—laid considerable emphasis on the fact that tremendous efforts are being made in Northern Ireland against great odds. Every praise ought to be given to all concerned, to the trade unions and of course to Ministers and all those who have worked to get inward investment to keep the wheels of industry turning in Northern Ireland. I do not wish in any way to detract from the views expressed by the Minister about the steady level of unemployment in Northern Ireland: employment has not declined to the degree that has taken place in the rest of the United Kingdom. But, if you are at the bottom, you are at the bottom and there is nowhere else to go. Northern Ireland has been in that chronic unemployment position for years and years. It may not all be related to the chronic recessionary period: there are other reasons, and I would openly admit that.

Certain useful developments are taking place under the headings of the Department of Finance and Personnel, page 11, Vote 3 and the Department of Economic Development, page 9, Vote 1. Since the enactment of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) NI Order 1992, there has been a marked upsurge at district council level in the promotion of employment, investment, business and tourist developments. I understand that most of the 26 local district councils have appointed economic development committees and, in some instances, development officers.

Just over a week ago on 17th February, I had the pleasure of attending a very well organised and successful development promotion arranged by the Newry and Mourne District Council. The promotion was held to launch two videos specially commissioned to promote the economic development of the Newry and Mourne areas. These videos are entitled "Business Matters" and "Choice for Business". They are available in five main languages. They are to be made available and used throughout the world to attract new investment and trade to that district council area.

Great efforts are being made and they are already beginning to show results. I can refer to a list of other local district councils which are doing the same thing. A 2p rate is available for this form of development.

However, there are some problems which arise in relation to what have been called power structures and clashes of ideals. Will the Minister consider inquiring of the DED whether it would be helpful to establish a special district council economic development unit to assist with advice and interdepartmental co-ordination?

District councils normally work with the Department of the Environment, but these proposals involve tourism, health services and roads. A tremendous amount of co-ordination is required when the projects come forward. There is also the problem of other local interests—and rightly so—such as LEDU and some other agencies. They are difficult to bring into the discussions which are necessary when industrial development is going on.

This brings forward the issue of EC grants being made available if they can be joined together. That would make the situation much easier. I speak highly of what is being organised by the chamber of commerce and the CBI. They have deliberately taken on contracts for cross-border trade which is already showing great results in promoting trade and, I hope, employment.

Finally, perhaps I may deal with the subject of job promotion and inward investment. In another place on 18th February last, a Question was asked about inward investment in Northern Ireland. The reply to the Question was: So far this financial year, the Industrial Development Board has secured seven new inward investment projects involving a total investment of just over £105 million and offering 1,299 new jobs. This is a most encouraging achievement".—[Official Report, Commons, 18/2/93; col. 463.] I admit that 1,299 new jobs on the horizon is very good. But when one begins to analyse that, a number of points arise. The Question was about inward investment and the reply stated about total investment. I assume that that means public and private finance. When one examines the reply, it indicates a cost per job of over £80,000. That is far in excess of any assessment of cost per job made by the Northern Ireland Economic Council.

I refer to its report, Inward Investment in Northern Ireland, No. 99, published in 1992. Page 53 of that report deals with six years of job promotions, total aid, total investments and cost per job. The total cost per job is given as £20,000 over a period of six years. I believe that this matter requires some clarification for a number of reasons. Money is being asked for industrial development and for the promotion of jobs. If it is going to cost £80,000 per job on average, then perhaps the money should be directed to more scientific development, infrastructure needs, skilled management and the enhancement of training and skills for the workers. There would be better returns and a more competitive situation would be developed if the money was spent in that way. It is a question which has to be dealt with much more actively than by debate across the Floor of the House.

I ask the Minister to look at that report and page 69, which states: Given the resources that continue to be expended on this strand of industrial development policy in Northern Ireland it is clear that an extensive review is now long overdue. The Council, therefore, recommends that an independent review of this type is undertaken immediately, preferably by a person or organisation from outside Northern Ireland". Will the Minister undertake to have this issue clarified? Will he also say whether an independent review is being considered? I thank the Minister and I support the order.

5.17 p.m.

Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge

My Lords, I follow my old colleague the noble Lord, Lord Blease, in thanking the Minister for a very clear exposition of this annual affair. I represent my noble friend Lord Holme of Cheltenham who is unable to be here. I shall not be as aware of all the details as he would be. I have not spoken in your Lordships' House on Northern Ireland for over 10 years, so it was a great pleasure to see exactly the same faces and the same names on the list of speakers, with the notable exception of the Minister, as appeared 10 years ago. I have a certain feeling of nostalgia for the whole thing.

After 10 years it is rather disappointing—and it is 17 years since I had any responsibility for Northern Ireland—to find that the problems are much the same and the solutions not noticeably nearer. The total revised figure in today's appropriation order is £2,375,610,000. That is considerable. I looked up the figure for 10 years ago which was £1,075,398,800. If one makes allowance for inflation, which is about one-third over that period in real terms, the present amount represents a large increase over 10 years. I do not know that we have a great deal to show for it except in generally keeping the lid on. That is all we have succeeded in doing so far. I am not telling noble Lords how to do better because I do not believe that anyone knows.

We were told by the NIEC last November that activity in the Province is continuing to follow a steady downward trend. As the Minister mentioned, unemployment now stands at 14.6 per cent., which is very high for such a small country.

We are all aware of the sinister contribution of terrorism to these disturbing facts and of the determination of the IRA to deprive its fellow countrymen (whether Catholic or Protestant) of a decent standard of living. Its policy seems to be to upset everything so that nothing works. I shall not go into the motives of the IRA. To my mind, they are absolutely unintelligible. When one realises that Southern Ireland is almost as frightened of the IRA as we are, what it is doing is habitual rather than in any sense designed. It produces the most appalling behaviour on the other side. The whole thing is very sad. However, it is fair to say that the IRA has had some success in preventing what the noble Lord, Lord Blease, was talking about, which is obtaining incoming work from businesses outside. How can one expect outsiders to invest freely in such conditions? During the past 12 years only about 9,000 jobs have been created in new, externally owned projects. That is not very impressive despite the fact that an awful lot of work has been done at considerable expense.

Perhaps I may turn now to some of the details of the order, and deal first with agriculture. If I had known that I should be speaking in this debate, I should have worn my Northern Ireland Milk Marketing Board tie, of which I am very proud, although I am not quite sure what has happened to the Northern Ireland Milk Marketing Board. The cuts of 27 per cent. in the hill livestock compensatory awards seem a devastating blow. One knows the difficulties. One knows the problems of the French farmers, GATT and everything else, but the way in which that is affecting one small corner of Northern Ireland and harming ordinary men is difficult to swallow. The awards were meant to assist the less favoured areas—and 72 per cent. of Northern Ireland's land falls into that category. Something may have to be done to help those mostly small—often very small—farmers. If France can do it, we must also.

I should like to say a word about housing. It is predicted that there will be a £73 million shortfall between what the Housing Executive thinks it is absolutely imperative to do and what it has the money to do. It says that it can deal with only one in five of the houses that are unfit to live in. In addition, 4,044 houses were built in 1983, but only 953 in 1990. I do not know whether the Minister can say anything to cheer us up in relation to housing which, unlike some other things, seems to be getting steadily worse. A good many other things are getting worse, but much more slowly.

On the subject of education, I agree absolutely that what many of us are interested in is integrated education and schools. It is obvious to all of us that that is something constructive. In spite of all the bad things that go on, integrated education is something which, in itself, is good. It is so hard to find things like that in Northern Ireland and occasions when one can feel that not only is one stopping something from going wrong, but actually putting something right. I understand the difficulty is that there is a good demand for places, but resources are short. It seems to many of us that that matter should be dealt with and I should be grateful if the Minister could take a look at it. He said that there were 18 integrated schools. If there is any chance of increasing the number of such schools then, given the small sums involved compared with many of the other things that we are talking about, I do not think that that chance should be denied. Major priority should be given to one of the few things which we all think is working in the right direction.

There is a clear need for low-cost rented housing. I hope that some of the increase in Vote 2 can be spared for that purpose, but it is not clear that it will be. One must not support only the owner-occupiers. There is a great need for low-cost rented housing.

I turn finally to water. I beg the Government to reconsider their plans to privatise the water service. It is suggested that that might increase domestic bills by as much as £300, but even if that is an exaggeration, privatisation would certainly increase them. Of course, something must be done about repairs where there is huge wastage, but it would be ironic if water were to become an exploited resource given the splendid rainfall of Northern Ireland.

I should like to finish with one brief thought. There is only one way forward, and we all know what it is —it is, first, through talks, and then through shared administration. All of us in this party—and, I am sure, in this House—will do all that we can to help the Secretary of State to get the talks going again and to establish an Administration of some kind. I served in Northern Ireland when there was an Administration for about three weeks. It was jolly good and very hopeful. I very much hope to see that again one of these days.

5.26 p.m.

Lord Fitt

My Lords, at the outset perhaps I may say how pleased I am to see the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, once again participating in Northern Ireland debates. I recall vividly when he was a Minister in the Northern Ireland structure in 1974 in the first five months of that year, there was real hope that progress could be made under the Sunningdale Executive, which tried so desperately to bring about consensus, reconciliation and co-operation between the communities in Northern Ireland. I think that the noble Lord would testify that every member of that Executive, which straddled both communities, tried desperately to hold on to the Executive—not in our own personal interests, but in the interests of all the people of Northern Ireland. Sadly, it was brought to an end by what was alleged to be the Ulster workers' strike, which was a bigoted strike by certain people who did not agree with the Executive.

The noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, reflected sadly that nothing seems to have changed much since he was a Minister. He said that in all the years that he has sat in your Lordships' House—and I have been with him for the past 10 years—nothing seems to have changed dramatically in Northern Ireland.

I realise that when we have these twice-yearly debates on the appropriation orders some people in this building—and particularly some in the other House—feel rather irritated that we are discussing what are really local government or county council projects. Indeed, it has been alleged that one Member asked, "Why take up the prime time of the House with these purely county council matters?" However, the fact is that this is the only forum in which such matters can be debated because local government in Northern Ireland has absolutely no functions. There is no Assembly and there does not seem any possibility of an Assembly. I know that Parliament may be weary of listening to Members from Northern Ireland, and that must be especially true for the Hansard reporters who have to listen to townland names from throughout Northern Ireland. I do not know how they manage to spell them, and pronouncing them makes it even more difficult for them. But that is the structure that we have been left with and this is the only place in which we can debate the orders.

Before leaving home today I listened to both the radio and the television reports of the increase in unemployment in this country. British Gas is to pay off 4,000 workers and ICI is to pay off about 7,000. It is a problem throughout the United Kingdom. I am sure that every elected representative and all those who are interested in Northern Ireland will be concerned about those figures. Northern Ireland, however, is in a unique position. The terrible total of 108,000 in the small community of Northern Ireland is more devastating than would appear to be the case if that level of unemployment occurred in other parts of the United Kingdom. In Northern Ireland, 27 per cent. of the people are unemployed. Of those, 58 per cent. are under 34 years of age. That is where Northern Ireland is unique. That is the time when people are thinking of getting married, acquiring a home and putting down some roots in the community. The unemployment figure of 3 million in the United Kingdom is a disaster, but many of those people have been made redundant because they are 50 years of age or running up to 60. In Northern Ireland there is dreadful insecurity. When people are in their 20s or 30s they want to get married, put down roots and build a family. On the face of it, they have no prospect of getting a job.

What can people do? Do they settle in to being dependent upon the social services? There is a dependency culture in Northern Ireland. People realise that they have no possibility of obtaining a job. Many years ago I was a Member of Parliament representing a Northern Ireland constituency and I put down a series of Questions to the Minister asking about the unemployment figures. There is a great deal of anxiety in this country at the moment about the number of people who have been unemployed for more than one year. In Northern Ireland people have been unemployed for five, 10, 20 and 30 years. They will never obtain a job. The Minister might find it interesting to go into those figures. There are people who have never had a job since leaving school. They have to depend upon the state. They do not want to, but what can they do in those circumstances? Do they settle into living in the dependency culture or do they go to other parts of the United Kingdom where, again, there is little prospect of them obtaining a job? They are caught on the treadmill of despair.

That has had no small effect upon the troubled times through which Northern Ireland has lived for the past 20 years. When one is in that rut there seems to be no one worried about you or your vision of what life will be in the future. It is easy to see how young people could be attracted by paramilitary—loyalist or republican—organisations. It is no answer to say that the troubles of Northern Ireland have been brought about by unemployment. The troubles in Northern Ireland have been brought about by 400 or 500 years of Irish history, but endemic unemployment creates and nurtures all the old sores.

I have a letter in my desk from a young girl who has just obtained a 2.1 degree in history and politics from Queen's University. I do not know why she studied history and politics in Northern Ireland after living there for 21 years. She says that she is prepared to take a job anywhere in Northern Ireland or here. That young girl's education has been paid for in part by the taxpayer. Where does she go? Young people with an education can come here where, again, there are difficulties, or they can go to some other part of the world. That is their dream. They are Northern Ireland's life blood and they should be staying there.

Reference is made in the order to a regeneration of the community. It is a question of only £3.4 million. One could spend hours trying to analyse what regeneration of the community in Northern Ireland means. I remember when the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, was there many years ago with his noble friend, whose name I forget for the moment. He took an interest in the communities in Northern Ireland. It was sad that he had to leave because of a change of government. He tried to do something. I do not live in Northern Ireland, but I am in almost daily touch with people there to try to find out what is happening to bring about a regeneration of the community. There is a prime example in my former constituency of West Belfast.

Some people say that part of the city is a no-go area. It is, in many respects. It is a no-go area for the police and security forces, but it is very much a "go" area for joyriders. It is also a no-go area for potential investment in Northern Ireland. It is imperative that the Government use all their resources to drive that community back into being a civilised society. One cannot write off all the people and say that they are all republicans or murderers. They are not loyalists or republicans; they are the people who live there. They have no hope of leaving or getting a job. If they have no hope of finding a job, the everyday running of their lives—paying their rents and acquiring all the other essentials of life—is difficult. The Government should put in a great deal of effort to bring about the regeneration of those areas.

Another item of which I have taken note is the abolition of the wages councils in Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland has had unemployment since its inception. It is a low-wage economy. Wages councils exist to protect the people at the very bottom of the wage-earning society. When they are abolished, unscrupulous employers will take advantage of their abolition. That is the last thing that Northern Ireland needs.

I wish to talk about LEDU. When I represented West Belfast I was happy with LEDU. I believed that it had done everything it could to attract small businesses into Northern Ireland. I notice that LEDU was criticised in another place, but in my former constituency LEDU has been instrumental in bringing in, and has given whatever financial support it could to, what is known as a silotank. The company is Digestors Silos and Tanks Limited of Northumberland Street in West Belfast. Loyalists were at one end of the street and republicans at the other. Many murders were committed there by both sides. Many members of the security force were killed in that street. It is a tremendous advance that LEDU has been instrumental in establishing Unit 2 on the industrial site there. The idea was imported from Switzerland. It must be said in LEDU's favour that it was instrumental in bringing technology from Switzerland which will be organised by people who live in Northern Ireland.

When I represented that constituency I was almost afraid to go out on that street, because one was always in danger of being shot by one or other of the paramilitary organisations or the security forces, so I have no criticisms to make of LEDU.

It is only a minor point, but mention has been made of the clearing of the old gas works site in the City of Belfast. That is a nostalgic memory for me, because when I stopped going to sea after the last war one of the first jobs I got was as a stoker in the Belfast gasworks. I remember it well. I remember the nearby bars which we would all go into before we started work. Sometimes we would escape over the wall to go into them again. What do the Government intend to do with that site? It is a prime site in the centre of Belfast. Will they use it for housing? If industry could be attracted to the site, it would be of tremendous benefit to the surrounding market area where so many people are unemployed.

The last time we debated the appropriation order I mentioned waiting lists for cardiac operations in Northern Ireland. It is recognised throughout the world that more people suffer from heart complaints in Northern Ireland than anywhere else. I hope that the Government will spare no expense to ensure that those who are in need of bypass surgery do not have to wait over-long for their operations. I recently received a letter from a man of 51 years of age who had pains in his chest. He went to a hospital where he was told he needed bypass surgery, but that there was a two-year waiting list. He said, "How long do you think I'll last with this?". The consultant said, "You could last six months or a year". The patient said, "You have advised me that I cannot have an operation for two years but you then tell me in another breath that I can last only a year". The consultant said to him—I shall mention his name if it becomes necessary—"Do you own your own house? Do you own your own car? How much money do you have in the bank or the building society? If I were in your position I would advise you to draw it out and to go private". That is an awful condemnation of the social security system and the health service in Northern Ireland. The case is still pending and I shall give the names of the consultant and the patient to the Minister.

I conclude by referring again to what was said by the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson. I listened to and read the debate in another place on the appropriation order. Anyone coming from another planet and knowing nothing about Northern Ireland would, after listening to and reading the debates, recognise that one issue permeates the whole atmosphere in Northern Ireland; it is a dreadful sense of insecurity. There is insecurity in jobs, in the need for housing and in having something to look forward to.

Government in Northern Ireland is far removed from what it was in the days of the old Stormont, or during the time of the Executive or even when the Assembly was in operation. The Unionist Members are annoyed that the Government are pouring money into the building of a road between Newry and the Republic. They see that as a means of taking away from their interests and bringing together unity with the Republic. They are asking, "Why aren't the Government pouring money into the Larne area, because Lame is adjacent to Scotland?". The Catholic nationalist community is doing everything that it can to push forward the Newry road and the Protestant community is disappointed because no road appears to be going to Larne.

Furthermore, people appointed by the Government to what are referred to as quangos are first asked about their religion. It is asked, "Is he one of ours or is he one of theirs?". If he is not one of theirs there is insecurity because of the possibility that he will not act in their interests. A Member in another place actually asked a Minister, "When are you going to build houses for Protestants in North Belfast?". In representing the interests of his constituents he believes that in North Belfast more houses are being built for Catholics than are being built for Protestants. Again, there exists a terrible insecurity.

Northern Ireland is being affected by the closure of beds. A representative said that beds were being closed in the Royal Victoria Hospital and the City Hospital and that patients were being directed to a hospital on the Crumlin Road in Belfast, which is a Catholic hospital. Throughout the debates the representatives appeared to be so afraid and insecure that there appears to be no progress.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, that with economic problems in Northern Ireland, with the poverty and social deprivation that exists there and with the breakdown in community relationships, it is imperative that every Northern Ireland elected representative in this Government and the Irish Government should do everything they can to ensure that inter-party talks are resumed. No obstacle should be put in the way because any obstacle would lead merely to ongoing tragedy for the people of Northern Ireland.

5.45 p.m.

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I support my noble friend in his presentation of the appropriation order. I have been involved with Northern Ireland for the past nine years but I note that today there is a sad gap on the Cross-Benches. We are delighted to see in the Chamber the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain. We look forward to having the benefit of her wisdom on dairy produce and agriculture. However, for the first time to my knowledge we shall not hear the forthright and helpful tones of Lord Dunleath. For many years Lord Dunleath was in the forefront of political life in the Province, not least in the domain of agriculture. I, many of your Lordships and many of his friends in Great Britain will mourn his passing.

Noble Lords

Hear, hear!

Lord Lyell

My Lords, I shall direct the remainder of my comments to Vote 1, the schedule dealing with agriculture. I was pleased to hear my noble friend say that there will be assistance for private veterinary practitioners. I hope that the veterinary research laboratory and the veterinary service of the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland are able to keep up with the extraordinary scientific work that is required. I refer to that connected with disease eradication, the meat plants and the blood tests which are carried out in the Province. They are essential in fulfilling our European requirements as regards anabolic steroids, additives and hormones in meat. Northern Ireland cannot afford to lose its excellent reputation for animal health, nor its reputation for producing the best food in Europe. My noble friend's waistline shows that, as does mine.

I hope that my noble friend will be able to give the House some encouragement about the hill livestock compensatory allowances. All of us, including my noble friend who fulfils his office excellently and with great spirit, have been subject to the pressures of the Treasury and above all the beloved Northern Ireland Audit Office. We shall be interested to hear my noble friend's views on the matter.

There appears to be a problem with potatoes in the Northern Ireland agricultural sector, as indeed there was in 1985. If my noble friend has time perhaps he will ask the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, to hand him the Good Book which sits on the Table. In it he will find great comfort, as did I in 1985 when at a particular service I looked at Psalm 65. It describes how the rivulets ran down the furrows and fertility was given. I understand that last year more than rivulets were involved and that parts of County Down and Cumber were under water. We should be grateful for any encouraging news of the potato trade that my noble friend can give. Indeed, we are grateful for what he and his department have done and are doing to try to help those farmers.

Vote 2 refers to the veterinary services. I hope that my noble friend will confirm that all is well among my friends and the friends of agriculture at the veterinary research laboratory in Northern Ireland, which is no distance from my noble friend's office. I hope that any increased workload at the laboratory will be funded and will receive a high priority in my noble friend's spending projects. Will my noble friend take on board and confirm, although not necessarily tonight or in the immediate future, the fact that all remedial work on the drainage sector is being carried out? All remedial work on the Blackwater scheme has been completed. The main scheme was a gigantic one which took about 10 years to complete. I believe that it has now been completed. However, your Lordships will know that a great deal of remedial work and tidying up of land slippage and so on needed to be carried out. Perhaps my noble friend will verify that that work has been completed.

My noble friend mentioned flood protection. I am not aware of any major disasters, the like of which we had in Scotland on the Tay. However, I recall one year that there was a serious flood problem at Myroe, out towards Londonderry. I seem to remember that quite a number of sheep were drowned when the flood walls gave way. In fact, I was advised that that was because rabbits had made their homes in the flood walls and that made the walls give way. Perhaps my noble friend will confirm that the flood works to which he referred specifically are being carried out and that the Myroe area continues to have a high priority in my noble friend's projects.

That concludes my remarks on agriculture. I am delighted to see that the Northern Ireland Audit Office seems to be looking for £1.7 million. I am astonished at the value for money that that provides since I know that the Treasury and the Northern Ireland Department of Finance and Personnel are extremely parsimonious with funds. However, I pay my tribute to the work of the Northern Ireland Audit Office. We should also ensure that the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Health and Social Services, so ably run by my noble friend, receive the funds which they seek.

The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, mentioned a hospital and who did or did not wish to go to that hospital because it might not suit their views. I hope that in Northern Ireland we shall see something that I saw in England after the appalling air crash at Kegworth. I visited the main hospital in Derby where I found two employees of the Department of Agriculture, who, happily, were on the mend. Indeed, my own former Private Secretary was in Leicester and I am delighted to say that he is fully restored to good health. In the Derby hospital were two adjacent beds. The occupant of one was a young man and the occupant of the other was a young lady. Neither had injuries which were too serious. One of the beds was surrounded by fleets of Madonnas, Lourdes water, rosary beads and other religious items. The young man's bed was surrounded by red, white and blue scarves, Rangers apparel, which means to those of your Lordships who know Northern Ireland that the young man and his family were not necessarily partaking of the Lourdes water at that stage. Those two people were in adjacent beds. I understand that the young couple are soon to plight their troth. That gave me an inkling that hospitals in Northern Ireland and in Great Britain, generally cope with all health problems and problems caused by accidents. The service which those hospitals give is the same as that provided by the Department of Agriculture; that is, nulli secundussecond to none.

I support the order and I thank my noble friend for presenting the figures today.

5.55 p.m.

Lord Hylton

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, quite rightly drew attention to the feelings of insecurity being experienced in Northern Ireland. My partial answer to him perhaps lies in the cross-city rail link in the middle of Belfast which will connect the Larne line with the rest of the rail network. When that is eventually constructed and finished, it will be of considerable economic importance. It will also have a symbolic value as something linking one side of the river with the other and draw the two communities somewhat closer together than they have been in the past.

I should like to mention a few detailed points of which I have given notice to the Minister's department. The first concerns cross-border road closures. I understand from a recent parliamentary reply that no fewer than 103 road crossing points are at present closed under the emergency provisions legislation. That amounts to just over one-third of the total roads which cross the line in the whole of Northern Ireland.

It seems to me that, of their nature, those closures are bound to cause economic loss to people living on either side, because as well as imposing much longer journeys, they also cause considerable political resentment both in Northern Ireland and in the Republic. It is also anomalous that there should still be so many closures at a time when, I am glad to say, co-operation between the security forces in Northern Ireland and the Garda and the Irish Army is probably better than it has ever been and certainly very much better than it used to be. In my view the closures are an anomaly at a time when Sinn Fein and the IRA have been decisively repudiated by the electorate in the Irish Republic.

A third reason for considering that that is not a very satisfactory state of affairs is that 1993 sees the start of the single market in the European Community. It is a time when frontiers are supposed to be diminishing in importance and, above all, trade and exchanges within the whole of the Community are supposed to be on the increase. I realise that there is a major security factor and I know that the question is under constant review. That is an expression which we have heard on a good many occasions on a good many different subjects. It can mean almost nothing. Therefore, I ask Her Majesty's Government whether those closures can be reviewed either on an individual road-by-road basis or, if that is not considered satisfactory, on a county-by-county basis, with the intention of opening as many as possible as soon as possible.

My next point concerns fines and fine defaulters. We know that fines are the most appropriate punishment for a large range of offences. It is important to see that when they are imposed, those on whom they are imposed can pay them. I know—and I welcome it—that an experiment is currently under way in what are called unit fines whereby the fine that a person has to pay is related to his income so that there is a reasonable prospect of his being able to pay it. I hope that that experiment will be successful and will be extended to the whole of Northern Ireland before too long because that will cut down the number of problems which arise.

When people do not pay, they have to go to prison. It is a sad fact that between one-third and one half of the total prison admissions every year are for cases of fine default. That absorbs a disproportionate amount of time and energy of the prison service. Sometimes a person is kept in prison for only about 24 hours with remission, good conduct and so on. I hope that very soon we shall be able to have non-custodial penalties for fine defaulters. I have been assured by the probation board that that could be put in place quite quickly and that it would not involve a great deal of expense. I hope that it will happen soon. I should be most grateful for any encouragement that the Minister could give me on that point.

I now turn to the whole question of crime prevention. In that context I welcome the current review of the criminal justice system. That review is greatly needed and I hope good results will emerge from it. However, we have to remember that we are talking about a population in Northern Ireland of only one and half million. Therefore, to my mind, it is a suitable place in which to begin to put into place a comprehensive strategy for preventing crime. I am talking principally of normal civilian crime and not of terrorist or paramilitary crime. I believe that to make progress in this area much better co-ordination will be needed between government departments. Previous speakers have referred to the work of government departments. Greater co-ordination must be achieved between government departments and non-governmental organisations. I suspect that better co-ordination can be achieved without a vastly greater expenditure of money.

What is required above all else is to instil into people respect for others from a very early age. That process must begin with children in play groups and then be continued in schools, youth clubs and youth organisations. That would greatly help the situation. It would lower the rate of vandalism and it would lower people's aggression and the number of brawls, fights and incidents of petty thieving that occur. It would help reduce a whole range of crimes. However, a strategy must be adopted. If it were adopted, the various bodies that carry out good work in Northern Ireland could relate their work to it.

My final point concerns discrimination in local government employment. We need to remember that local government is still a large employer in Northern Ireland despite its limited functions. It employs every kind of person from labourers right up to chief executives. In my view it is sad that, after 21 years of direct rule, of fair employment law and the setting up of a Fair Employment Commission, discrimination still continues. In June 1990 there was a bad case of discrimination in the City of Belfast. A Protestant applicant was appointed to a post over five better qualified Roman Catholics. That is just one example of discrimination. I know there are other examples of discrimination in the other direction.

It is also a sad fact that not all district councils in Northern Ireland have yet signed the declaration on fair employment. There is still some reluctance to sign that declaration and some councils are still backsliding on that issue. A number of government organisations are working on this problem. They include the Fair Employment Commission, the Civil Service Commission and the Community Relations Commission. I hope they can get their act together and that there are not too many of them all trying to stir the same pot and trying to achieve the same result. Discrimination needs to be tackled. Once it has been eliminated, that will go a long way to removing the feelings of insecurity which have been mentioned this evening.

6.5 p.m.

Baroness O'Cathain

My Lords, I did not intend to speak in this debate. However, I was thrown the gauntlet by the noble Lord, Lord Lyell. Having entered the Chamber to listen to the debate I feel enthused by the speeches I have heard. It has probably always been the case in this House that Northern Ireland is referred to as a normal place and as a normal part of the United Kingdom where life goes on in a normal way. However, I have never heard it referred to in that way before. There are, of course, problems in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, it always seems to be the problems that are highlighted. Many people do not realise that many good things happen in Northern Ireland too.

It is sad that there are so few noble Lords present in the Chamber to hear the great contributions that have been made, particularly by the noble Lords, Lord Blease and Lord Fitt. I am not supposed to call them my noble friends but both of them happen to be my friends. I know what both of them have achieved from different sides of the spectrum in Northern Ireland, as it were. Their one objective is to ensure that Northern Ireland will become what it was in the past; that is, a thriving, God-fearing place and a good place in which to live.

I have three points to make. First, those involved in agriculture in Northern Ireland could teach their counterparts on the mainland a great deal. I was temporarily connected with agriculture in Northern Ireland as a marketing adviser for the Ministry of Agriculture in England. I could not understand why farmers in Northern Ireland were much more aware of marketing than their counterparts on the mainland. After about three days I realised that as Northern Ireland is a fairly small place most of the farmers there know the civil servants in the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland. They also know the agriculture Ministers, talk to them and explain their problems to them. There is a dialogue between the farmers and the Ministers on the needs of consumers. I wish that that happened to a greater extent in this part of the United Kingdom.

I hope that agriculture in Northern Ireland will continue to prosper. There are problems there as we have heard, but the farmers in Northern Ireland are sensitive to the needs of consumers. Their produce is more expensive in this country than our own produce because Northern Ireland farmers face additional transport costs. Nevertheless, they still manage to sell their produce over here and they can still show the milk marketing boards in the United Kingdom a thing or two about selling dairy products.

My noble friend Lord Hylton mentioned discrimination. I fear we make a little too much of that. The record of discrimination in Northern Ireland is a lot better than it used to be. I know of many examples of serious discrimination in this country. They involve gender, colour and sometimes creed. We should play down discrimination in Northern Ireland. I want to witness a greater dialogue with the people in Northern Ireland on the subject of discrimination. We should discuss ways of reducing it.

I make a plea to the Minister for better health education in Northern Ireland. The figures for heart disease are appalling. Northern Ireland has the highest incidence of heart disease of any country in the United Kingdom. As we know, the United Kingdom has one of the highest incidences of heart disease in Europe, or indeed the world. There is great food in Northern Ireland and that is partially, if not wholly, responsible for the high incidence of heart disease there. I believe a public campaign should be mounted to try to lessen the high incidence of heart disease as it causes real distress to the families of those who are afflicted by it. I should also mention the cost of treating those who suffer from the disease. The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, mentioned the waiting lists for heart bypass operations in Northern Ireland. I believe that there may be a case now for a simple public campaign on diet to try to lessen cardiac disease, which would unite all the people of Northern Ireland.

6.9 p.m.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Earl for identifying the main components of the order. As we have been told by so many speakers, the order transfers very large sums of expenditure. In comparison with Wales and Scotland, public expenditure in Northern Ireland is substantially higher per capita.

The order is complex. At least that is my impression, even following the guidance given by the Minister. It is almost impossible to understand its significance without the guidance of the Government's booklet, Expenditure Plans and Priorities 1993–94 to 1995–96. With the help of the booklet the order begins to make sense.

We have been told graphically by my colleagues on the Benches behind me, and I do not believe that the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, would disagree, that there is much deprivation in Northern Ireland. For years the rate of unemployment has been high: it continues to be the highest of all parts of the United Kingdom. My noble friend Lord Fitt also made the point very powerfully that long-term unemployment is a severe problem for the Province. I believe that it was my noble friend who used the graphic phrase "the treadmill of despair".

We are glad that there is to be considerable expenditure on training young people. We support that expenditure. I notice that there are at least three programmes designed to that end. We are very pleased that young people are being guaranteed a place on a training scheme. Can the Minister tell the House what percentage of young people now under training are likely to be in employment within 12 months of completing their training?

There is increased—and justifiably so—expenditure on job creation. However, I wonder whether the department has made a prediction, taking all factors into consideration, as to how many new jobs are required in Northern Ireland to reduce unemployment to 1990 levels by the end of this century.

Associated with long-term unemployment and low household incomes are high levels of ill health, long-term sickness and disability. That in turn contributes to disadvantage and deprivation. Again, that has been described by my noble friend Lord Fitt. I trust that my noble friend will convey to the Minister the confidential information to which he referred. The housing budget continues to be overstretched —a point made powerfully by the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson. I am very glad to see the noble Lord in his place. He gave his perspective of 10 years of expenditure on government policies in Northern Ireland. His speech was not only reflective but sobering.

I mention those factors in order to demonstrate that Northern Ireland will need high levels of support from central government for many years to come. Therefore, it is particularly important, indeed essential, that central government spending is properly committed and monitored. That point was made by my noble friend Lord Blease. Yet we recently read two worrying reports on aspects of public expenditure in Northern Ireland.

On 12th November the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland was ordered to be printed. The report refers to the large write-offs made in 1991–92 by the Department of Economic Development, while the social security vote for the same year was qualified. We do not like qualified reports. On 19th November the report of the Public Accounts Committee was ordered to be published. The Minister will know that the committee was sharply critical of the Department of Education's failure for 13 years between 1978 and 1991 to monitor its teachers' premature retirement scheme. That is a truly amazing tale. The committee found that there was a total absence of management information on the cost of the retirement scheme, both in the cases of individual teachers and overall. We found the report most worrying.

I was very interested in the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, on expenditure on the Northern Ireland Audit Office referred to on page 11. Is the Minister in a position to tell the House how many adverse reports involving either lack of control of expenditure or monitoring of expenditure on departmental programmes or the programmes of their agencies have been received by the Northern Ireland Office during the past five years? We formed the impression that the money is just sloshing around without adequate control. It would be helpful if we also knew how the Northern Ireland Office compares in that respect with the other two territorial departments responsible for Scotland and Wales, in however broad terms.

In the past few days I have read the annual report of the chief adjudication officer for 1991–92 on the adjudication standards of the Social Security Agency during a period of rising workloads due to increased unemployment. Once again I am pleased to welcome the CAO's report. This year it points to limited improvements in some aspects but reminds us of deterioration in others. I believe that the chief adjudication officer is answerable to the Minister.

Perhaps I may now leave the accountants and move on to another dimension provided by the reflections of Dr. Eames, the Primate of the Church of Ireland, when he gave evidence to the Opsahl Commission in Belfast last week. According to the right reverend primate the principal objective of government policy should be the building up of trust throughout society. The Government should seek to achieve that objective by reducing unemployment, reducing sectarianism, reducing community ills and enhancing fair employment.

Clearly, there is considerable expenditure by the Government on measures aimed at job creation. Can the Minister say to what extent the various policies of the Government are co-ordinated to achieve that desired end? Like the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, and my noble friends on the Benches behind me, I find it baffling that in the midst of all the unemployment, the Government's ideological policies in at least two fields will add to unemployment in Northern Ireland within the next year or so. Both derive from privatisation. As and from next April the district councils will be required to contract out many of their services. It has been calculated that that will lead to a loss of about 2,000 jobs. Why on earth is it necessary for the Government to proceed with the legislation in 1993? Indeed, can the Minister tell the House what effect the EC directive on acquired rights will have on the Government's contracting out policy and its underlying assumptions? Perhaps we may suggest that, given the provisions of the directive, the policy should be abandoned or at least delayed.

The other privatisation issue, namely, the Northern Ireland Electricity supply industry, is still much in the news. It was referred to by the noble Earl, Lord Arran, in his speech. I believe that again it is common ground that such privatisation will lead to job losses. On Saturday I received a lengthy letter of about 1,000 words written by a person in Northern Ireland alleging that the generating plants, in particular the power stations at Kilroot, West Belfast and Ballylumford, were sold off last year for a song and that the contracts with the American-Belgian consortium are exceptionally generous. The Expenditure Plans and Priorities booklet is thin on what happened at Kilroot, West Belfast and Ballylumford power stations. Indeed, I have heard more from the Minister today than I read in the booklet. It would be appreciated if the Minister could place a copy of the trade sales contract in the Library. Is that possible, or is it confidential? The letter contains a number of grave allegations which cause me some anxiety. However, to be fair, since the letter does not produce supporting evidence, I shall not pursue those allegations today although I reserve the right to come back to them.

The question which immediately arises is this. How will the privatisation measures, including the proposed privatisation of the water supply system, contribute to the reduction of unemployment? Perhaps the Minister will enlighten noble Lords on these Benches. We should have thought that in the present climate what makes sense is that the highest priority should be given by the Government to retaining jobs.

The primate encouraged a commitment to fair employment policies. I suppose that in a sense discrimination is the obverse of equal opportunity and fair opportunity. Notwithstanding what has been said today, the need for fair employment policies was again brought home to me by the recent report on fair employment procedures submitted to the governing body of Queen's University. Considering that during the past few years progress has been made at this seat of learning towards the goal of fair employment, I was surprised to read that it was still possible for the latest report to make 93 recommendations to enhance fair employment at the university. Perhaps the Minister will tell us how many of the 93 recommendations will be implemented. Is the department satisfied that there are good reasons why the remainder should not be implemented?

The primate dealt with the need to reduce sectarianism and to build up inter-community trust among those nearest to the problems and conflicts. We all know that that is a complex area. It is always difficult to reconcile what appear to be inherent contradictions. If I may say so, this is the constant theme which my noble friend Lord Blease presses upon me; and he of course is living through the difficulties, tensions and dangers.

The integrated schools, which are powerfully supported in this House, are making an important contribution. I wish too to pay tribute to the voluntary bodies which have exercised vigorous imagination and enterprise in that area. I also recognise in fairness to the Government that in recent years they have set up and given their full support to the Community Relations Council. The work of that council is sketched out on pages 170 and 171 of the booklet. We are greatly indebted to the council. Yet we would encourage it to play a maximum role in establishing and building up co-ordinating groups at different levels and throughout every part of Northern Ireland in pursuit of objectives to be achieved over a period of, say, three or five years; and of reporting to the department, and if need be to the Secretary of State himself, on the precise difficulties which it is encountering.

Perhaps I may say a final word on the reflective words of the Primate of the Church of Ireland. The Government have a key role to play in encouraging and facilitating the conditions that will lead to the build-up of inter-community trust. Perhaps the single most important initiative within the Government's gift is to introduce a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland. Will the Government at long last introduce a Bill of Rights? The concept is widely supported by all the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland. It is widely supported on this side of the House, and by my friends on the Benches on my right. Indeed, consensus on the issue even survived the failure of the talks last year.

Like other noble Lords who have spoken today, we encourage the Government to do what is in their power to restart the talks in Northern Ireland. I shall listen with great interest to the Minister's comments on the issues which have been raised today, and the many questions which have been addressed to him. In the meantime I am glad to confirm that we on these Benches approve the order.

6.26 p.m.

The Earl of Arran

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, is quite right in saying that many issues, and indeed even more questions, have been put to me this evening. However, before I start to answer those questions, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed today in an extremely wide-ranging debate. I feel very much like the new boy among so many people who have either served or lived in Northern Ireland, or who live at this moment in Northern Ireland.

Perhaps I may first take points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Blease. It was both thoughtful and kind of the noble Lord to mention earlier his points about the release of the salmon into the tributary of the River Lagan. I was closely involved in that matter. Indeed, it is a most determined effort to breathe new life into an historic and much loved river and thus symbolises so much of what so many in Northern Ireland feel and desire.

The noble Lord asked the sources of the funding of the £105 million for the new inward investment project attracted by the IDB so far this year which the Minister responsible for the economy quoted in another place on 18th February. The IDB provided selective financial assistance totalling £30 million and the remaining £75 million was invested by the private sector. The main projects involved were, for instance, Pan European Textiles and Fruit of the Loom.

The noble Lord then asked about the new Voluntary Activity Unit. He is quite right. It is mentioned carefully and strongly in the Strategic Framework document for the voluntary sector, the launch of which I took part in last week. That Voluntary Activity Unit, which will be established within the DHSS, will be acting as a focal point in co-ordinating the work of the voluntary services. A strategy defining the precise aims and roles of the unit will be developed in consultation with the voluntary sector and the unit will assume the lead responsibility in community development and provide structures necessary for consideration among departments on key issues in that field. The noble Lord asked more specific questions. If he will allow me, I shall write to him on them.

The noble Lord, Lord Blease, put forward the suggestion of a special district council economic development unit. It is an interesting idea which I shall pass on to the Minister responsible. The noble Lord also asked about the Northern Ireland Economic Research Council. Its recent report recommended an independent review of inward investment and the establishment of a computerised database. The Permanent Secretary of the Department of Economic Development and IDB's chairman have just completed a review of IDB's overseas promotional activities. In addition, consultants have been retained by IDB to carry out an examination of Northern Ireland's competitive position in relation to the industrial sector being targeted. In those circumstances, IDB does not believe that there is a need at this time to set up an independent review of inward investment policy. However, work on the development of the computerised database is already under way and it is being afforded a high degree of priority with a representative team led at deputy chief executive level.

If I may say so, it was a great pleasure to see the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, speaking again from his Benches, having served many years ago in Northern Ireland. It was even more of a pleasure to see him wearing the Milk Marketing Board tie. I very much hope that when he speaks again from those Benches he will continue to wear that tie.

The noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, asked particularly about the hill livestock compensatory allowances reduction. I acknowledge the concerns about the reduction in HLCA rates for hill sheep, but I point out that the incomes of mixed livestock farmers in the Northern Ireland less favoured areas (LFAs) have improved substantially for a second successive year. The average net farm income in the Northern Ireland severely disadvantaged areas is estimated to have increased by 70 per cent. over the past year. We could not ignore those factors in deciding the HLCA rates for 1993.

I also point out that overall support for hardy breed ewes has increased, not decreased. I am sorry to come down to specifics, but the total support will be £34.45 compared with £32 the previous year. I can tell my noble friend Lord Lyell that most of those affected will also benefit from higher suckler cow premiums and many will gain from the extension of environmentally sensitive areas in Co. Antrim and the considerable amount coming through shortly in Co. Fermanagh.

The noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, asked that the Government should encourage proposals for integrated education. We are happy to do that, but we can only respond to the parents' desires. It would be counter-productive to try to force the pace, but as the noble Lord recognises, progress has been made and the outlook is certainly encouraging.

The noble Lord mentioned Housing Executive budgets and referred to the resources available to the Housing Executive. There are many important public expenditure programmes in Northern Ireland but I have to say that resources are finite. In 1992–93, the Housing Executive will have gross resources of some £488 million, and that substantial sum will support the Housing Executive's aims of improving housing conditions in Northern Ireland and meeting urgent housing need.

The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, made his customary impassioned appeal for recognition of the many good points that exist in Northern Ireland and made his plea that many more beneficial points should increase in Northern Ireland. He particularly asked about the regeneration of West Belfast. The Government are fully aware of the severe economic difficulties in that area and are tackling them in a number of major ways. For example, the Making Belfast Work scheme seeks to tackle the economic and social problems in the most disadvantaged areas of Belfast; £124 million will have been spent on the programme between 1988–89 and 1993–94, in addition to mainstream programmes. In addition, Targeting Social Need—the Government's third public expenditure priority—is targeted at areas of need. I know that the Industrial Development Board is also actively seeking to attract industry to that area.

The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, asked, in relation to the gasworks site, when the Belfast site would be cleared and what were the plans for its future. The 27-acre site is now fully cleared. The property is within the Laganside development area and consideration is being given to how best it might be developed.

The noble Lord also referred to health and, in particular, cardiac surgery and waiting lists. The noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, also specifically mentioned that issue. Additional funding of almost £1 million was made available for the appointment in May last year of a fourth cardiac surgeon and supporting team at the Royal Victoria Hospital. That will allow an increase in the yearly number of health service cardiac operations at the hospital from 630 to 840. Additional resources have also been made available to purchase cardiac operations from hospitals in Great Britain for people who have been waiting for over two years. The number of people waiting for this length of time has declined since early 1992 from well over 400 to 170. Additional resources totalling some £2.75 million will be made available in 1993–94 and that should help to wipe out the waiting list.

My noble friend Lord Lyell made some correct and affectionate comments about the late Lord Dunleath and the tragic circumstances of his passing. I am sure that everyone in your Lordships' House will sadly miss his contribution to debates on Northern Ireland and on many other issues.

My noble friend Lord Lyell asked about developments in the Veterinary Sciences Division of the Department of Agriculture. Two topics are particularly worthy of mention. First, I can tell him that the scientists in the Veterinary Sciences Division have been at the forefront—as the noble Lord well knows from his time there—in developing new techniques to detect the presence of Clenbuterol—or "angel dust" as it is often called—in animals. The technique involves detecting the drug in the retina of the eye which allows abuse to be identified more than 12 weeks after Clenbuterol has been withdrawn. That has rendered the abuse of Clenbuterol uneconomic and it is a most welcome step in the effort to reduce drug abuse in animals.

Secondly, I was also pleased to note that the Veterinary Sciences Division and the Applied Plant Sciences Division of the Department of Agriculture have been awarded £400,000 of EC funding through the Science and Technology for Regional Innovation programme. That will establish a biotechnology centre for animals and plant health. The money will help disease prevention by upgrading the existing molecular biology facilities to allow the production of better diagnostic tests and improved vaccines for animals and disease resistant plants.

My noble friend Lord Lyell asked about the Blackwater drainage scheme. The Department of Agriculture is currently undertaking comprehensive environmental and fisheries compensatory measures following the completion of the Blackwater scheme.

My noble friend also mentioned the sensitive issue of potatoes in Northern Ireland. I can tell him that I am only too well aware of the difficulties with last year's potato crop. I can only make two comments tonight. First, as my noble friend knows, the Government have an agreement to consider the introduction of market support measures when and if the average market price falls to £46 per tonne. Despite the difficult trading circumstances, prices have not fallen to that level. Secondly, I can tell him also that I shall meet the Ulster Farmers' Union next week, but I am not prepared to prejudge that discussion now.

I now move to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hylton. He mentioned the closure of cross-border roads. The Government understand that road closures, whether in Belfast or Fermanagh, certainly have implications for local people in terms of both inconvenience and the effect on community life. Regrettably, such measures are necessary to counter terrorist attacks and the movement of guns and explosives. The precise measures used are kept under review (I have to use the phrase even though the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, may not like it) and indeed under constant and continual review. They are tailored as appropriate to the current terrorist threat. Also, the relaxation in frontier controls on the passage of goods will apply here as elsewhere in the European Community and the existing common travel arrangements between the Republic and the United Kingdom will be unchanged.

The noble Lord, Lord Hylton, raised the issue of discrimination in district councils. I can assure him that the agencies involved in fair employment—the Fair Employment Commission, the Local Government Staff Commission and the Central Community Relations Unit—have district roles and there is no duplication of effort or overlap of their functions.

The noble Lord also mentioned crime prevention in Northern Ireland. As he is aware, over the past year the Government have conducted a wide-ranging review of criminal justice policies in the country. Our policy on crime prevention has been a very important part of that review. The Northern Ireland Association for the Care and Resettlement of Offenders, of which he is the distinguished president, along with a wide range of other statutory and voluntary organisations, have very helpfully contributed to the review and my colleagues have paid careful regard to his views. We hope to publish the conclusions of the review in the coming months. At that stage we shall be happy to consider any further suggestions that the noble Lord may wish to make on the Government's proposals for the future of crime prevention, activity and policy, and on wider criminal justice policy issues in Northern Ireland.

On the subject of fines and fine defaulters, at present we are working on proposals for unit fines. I agree with the noble Lord that setting fines in relation to offenders' declared means should reduce default by those who at present cannot pay.

I make very strong mention of the contribution made by the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain. She said much that was particularly relevant and true about Northern Ireland, particularly on the subject of health promotion. Certainly a health promotion agency was established in October 1990 to undertake health promotion activity. Its work is to plan and carry out regional and local programmes in co-operation with health and social services boards and other people who are concerned with health promotion. Its work includes programmes on healthy lifestyles in particular. Indeed, given the instance and rate of heart disease in Northern Ireland, the noble Baroness can be assured that encouraging better health through improved diet is very high on the agency's agenda.

In conclusion, I turn to the points and very searching questions put by the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies. Like so many of your Lordships, he was particularly thoughtful and generous in giving me notice of them. He asked what percentage of young people under training for work in industry are likely to be in employment within 12 months of completion of the training course. Information in that regard is not at present available. The destination of young people leaving the youth training programme is recorded only at the point of leaving the programme. However, the Training and Employment Agency is about to commission a survey which will report on the destination of young people immediately on leaving the programme and, by means of a questionnaire issued at the end of each of the two years following the date of leaving, will seek to report on their progress. Existing monitoring arrangements indicate that in the period from 1st April 1992 to 31st January this year 56 per cent. of leavers from the programme had progressed into employment.

The noble Lord also asked about the number of new jobs required in Northern Ireland to reduce unemployment to 1990 levels by the year 2001. It is not the Government's practice to forecast employment or unemployment figures at either the national or regional level. In any case, such economic projections can be very unreliable since there is no direct and quantifiable link between changes in employment and in unemployment. For example, future levels of migration out of Northern Ireland would obviously affect the unemployment figure.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, also referred to the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General for Northern Ireland on the 1991–92 appropriation accounts. He asked how the number of qualifications noted in the report compares with the position in the Scottish and Welsh Offices. It is not possible to make such comparisons since the remit of the Northern Ireland Office extends to both central and local government activities whereas the National Audit Office deals only with central government in England, Scotland and Wales.

The noble Lord also raised the subject of compulsory competitive tendering in district councils. The point is that it is designed to encourage the maximum value for money in the delivery of services to the public. That principle applies just as much to councils in Northern Ireland as in the rest of the United Kingdom. It is not possible to say whether that will lead directly to any redundancies in council staff. At the end of the day it is for the councils to decide how best to manage their affairs. Experience in Great Britain has shown that the vast majority of contracts has remained in house.

The noble Lord also referred to the Acquired Rights Directive. The Government have always accepted that the public sector, both central and local government, are within the scope of the Acquired Rights Directive.

On the subject of NIE privatisation, the noble Lord asked about the trade sale contents for Kilroot, Belfast West and Ballylumford. I am afraid it is not possible to let the noble Lord have copies of those as the sale contents are commercially confidential. However, I refer him to the written response in another place of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on 5th March last year. I shall be happy to let the noble Lord have a copy of it.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, asked about fair employment at Queen's University and in particular the recommendations in the recent review by independent consultants. Those are matters for the university. However, I understand that, following a 1989 report by the then Fair Employment Agency, Queen's University has implemented a wide range of agreed affirmative action measures to ensure that all its recruitment and selection procedures comply with the fair employment code of practice.

Finally, the noble Lord asked about a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland. I can certainly tell him that we are fully committed to the protection of human rights. Our record on that is demonstrated by specific measures, such as the fair employment legislation. We are certainly willing to consider proposals for further strengthening that protection.

I am acutely aware that I have taken up much of your Lordships' time and at the same time not answered all the questions that have been put to me. I apologise but assure noble Lords that I shall answer those questions in writing. We have had an extremely interesting debate on the appropriation orders. As always, your Lordships have shown your normal interest, deep knowledge and concern for the wellbeing of the people of Northern Ireland.

On Question, Motion agreed to.