European Autonomous Regions (Hansard, 24 February 1993)

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, no.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, does the Minister accept that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would benefit greatly from democratic responsibility for their own internal affairs, leaving the United Kingdom to see to their defence and foreign affairs?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, with respect to the noble Lord, that is a different Question from that on the Order Paper. The noble Lord asked about European Autonomous Regions in his Question, and there is no concept of European Autonomous Regions.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that it would be utterly unconstitutional to grant to the European Community the power to force autonomy upon various parts of the United Kingdom when our own constitution, after mature consideration over many years by Parliament, does not do this? Is my noble friend aware that in the late 1970s the people of Scotland and the people of Wales had the chance to vote for or against executive devolution and they voted against it?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I recall exactly the position in the late 1970s of which my noble friend so rightly reminds the House. It is entirely for this Parliament to determine the constitution of the United Kingdom.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Renton, is quite wrong. The people of Scotland did in fact vote by a narrow margin for the rather bad Bill which was introduced. However, is the Minister aware that the Secretary of State for Scotland is alleged to be studying the whole question now? When will he report the results of his alleged thinking?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, that is another question.

§ Lord Ewing of Kirkford
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, as the noble Lord, Lord Mackie of Benshie, has just said, the noble Lord, Lord Renton, is wrong in saying that in the late 1970s the people of Scotland voted against executive devolution? In fact, the majority of people voted for executive devolution in that referendum but were denied it because of the 40 per cent. rule which was imposed by the other place at the time of the passage of the legislation.
Turning to the Question on the Order Paper, does the Minister, as I do, find it a strange Question? Surely if Article 227 of the Treaty of Rome were to be amended not only would Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales become European Autonomous Regions but ipso facto England would become a European 221 Autonomous Region also. Does the Minister agree that we can do without such manifestations of nationalism when we see what is going on in the name of nationalism in other parts of Europe?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we have to be careful about nationalism in the respect to which the noble Lord so rightly draws our attention; but as there is no concept of European autonomous regions in the Treaty of Rome, it would be a bad thing for Scotland, England or Wales to go down that route.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I am pleased that he is not treating this Question seriously? Are not Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland mere principalities of the United Kingdom? What of the heart of the United Kingdom, the fulcrum of the nation—

A noble Lord
My Lords, Yorkshire!

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, yes, Yorkshire. Is the Minister aware that if serious consideration were being given to this matter, on the basis of population, agriculture, steel and coal, Yorkshire itself would be the most autonomous and well-deserved region of the United Kingdom?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am proud to be a member of that part of the world known as the Kingdom of Scotland, which is not a mere principality. As the noble Lord will know, the eyes of the world were not focused on Yorkshire on Saturday, they were focused on Murrayfield, and what an excellent result!

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, I would rather be in a mere principality than in a mock Yorkshire region. If the Minister rejects the suggestion contained in the Question—I can understand why he is rejecting it—will he tell us what steps are being taken to ensure that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are represented adequately on the Committee of Regions which is proposed in the Treaty of Maastricht?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, there has been considerable discussion in order to get that representation right; but over and above getting right the representation on the Committee of Regions, he will also know that considerable discussions take place within government to ensure that the views of the people of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are taken into account. The Secretary of State for Scotland attended the recent joint Environment and Transport Council.

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, may we try to get this matter straight?

Noble Lords
No!

§ Lord Renton
My Lords, we should try to get straight what the people of Scotland and Wales did or did not do in the late 1970s. Were they not given by Parliament the opportunity to vote for devolution, and they failed to achieve that purpose?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, it would be wrong to digress too deeply into that subject because it is not the Question on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is not there contained in the Question an implicit insult to the nations of Wales and Scotland, because, after all, they are nations and have been nations for a long time? I believe that the people would object to becoming European autonomous region persons rather than Welshmen, Englishmen or Irishmen. Will the Minister confirm, as my noble friend said, that England would also become an autonomous region? Would that autonomy mean that the subsidies which are paid at the moment by England to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would cease?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the ingenuity of the noble Lord on these questions knows no bounds. I give him full marks for that question, but it is slightly wide of that on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords—

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords—

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Wakeham)
My Lords, I think the next question should come from my noble and learned friend.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, will my noble friend take note of the fact that there are some of us who are proud to be plain British?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, my noble and learned friend is right. I am sure that we all are.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, is it not also acceptable that the English, Scots, Welsh and Irish are all Europeans?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, that, too, is true.

§ Lord Stewartby
My Lords, will my noble friend confirm, unequivocally, that if at any stage any change were to be made in the relationship between the component parts of the United Kingdom, it would be improper if such change were contemplated or implemented through the European Community, and that it would be entirely a matter for the United Kingdom Parliament?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, yes. My noble friend is right; it is a matter for Parliament.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, regardless of the method, do all of us not now need porous frontiers which allow the local identity to be enjoyed within European union?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I do not believe that there is any doubt that the Welsh, the Scots and the Irish will continue to play an enormous part in their own right.