HL Deb 09 February 1993 vol 542 cc530-2

2.55 p.m.

Lord Annan asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will reverse their decision not to consider equipping the Metropolitan police force with side-handed or expanding batons, so as to provide police officers with better protection against assaults by criminals.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)

My Lords, we have agreed to the Metropolitan Police conducting trials of an expandable baton, subject to the outcome of a full scientific evaluation of its wounding potential. We have also agreed to the Metropolitan Police conducting trials of variants of the straight baton which can be carried in the truncheon pocket. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary does not believe that the side-handed baton is a suitable piece of equipment for use by police officers.

Lord Annan

My Lords, I am grateful and encouraged by the noble Earl's reply. I am sure that he will agree that scarcely a week passes without the press reporting a murderous assault on a police officer. Was it not alarming that until very recently the Home Office was not even willing to consider looking into the matter? I am greatly reassured by the news that the Home Office will now do so.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I believe that the whole House will share the anxiety of the noble Lord, Lord Annan, as regards the number of police officers who are assaulted. That is quite appalling and intolerable and causes a great deal of anxiety to Her Majesty's Government. However, I am sure that the noble Lord will recognise also that it is important that the style of policing should not change. Manufacturers estimate that a side-handed baton has a wounding potential nine times that of ordinary batons.

Lord Annan

My Lords, with great respect to the noble Earl, a change in the style of policing does not seem to me as important as giving police reasonable protection against these murderous assaults. We are not living in the age of "Dixon of Dock Green", when a villain who is faced with a policeman immediately says, "All right guy, it's a fair cop". We are now dealing with a very different situation. Perhaps the noble Earl will reconsider his statement that the style of policing is all important. What matters is the safety of the police when they are dealing with murderous villains.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with the noble Lord, Lord Annan, but the style of policing is important. If police officers are to be equipped with weapons which can cause great harm—I repeat that the manufacturers estimate that a side-handed baton will do nine times more damage than an ordinary baton—the noble Lord may wish to take into account what would happen if a police officer were robbed of his baton and it was then used against him. For such reasons, my right honourable friend considered that use of the side-handed baton was not suitable.

Lord Mellish

My Lords—

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords—

Lord Mellish

Go on, Common Market!

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, if the noble Lord would like me to talk about the Common Market, I will do so at any time. However, at present I wish to talk about this Question. Is it not a fact that it is not the arms which the police carry which are causing the problem at present? Is it not that society is paying far too much attention to criminals and their rights and too little attention to the victims of crime and to society generally? Is it not a fact also that the police are sick and tired of taking cases to court when they know that severe penalties will not be imposed on criminals but at the same time decent citizens are being clobbered through the unit fine system? Substantial fines are imposed for small peccadillos while criminals leave the courts laughing at the small fines which have been imposed upon them.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart of Swindon, captivates the House as usual by expanding the Question to cover pretty well everything to do with the police. I have a great deal of sympathy with what he says. The amount of crime that takes place is quite appalling. I ask the noble Lord to consider the following. People are always asking what the police are doing and why they do not catch criminals. However, I ask the noble Lord to consider what it is that makes a tiny baby of six weeks who is dependent on others for everything become a criminal by the time he is 15 or 16 years old. The peak age of criminal activity is between 15 and 18. All of us, and home and school backgrounds, have a great part to play in preventing that from happening.

Lord Mellish

My Lords, has the bobby on the beat been asked whether or not he wants this thing?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, there are several bobbies on the beat and I do not think they have all been asked their opinion. However, the organisation which represents them has given the view of the police. It has said they would like this equipment.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, our police do a remarkable job of work but from time to time they find themselves in some difficulties. Is there constant liaison between the noble Earl's department and the representatives of the police as regards matters the latter think should be discussed with Her Majesty's Government?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, there is constant liaison between the police and my department. It is understandable that the police want to have a piece of equipment which will adequately protect them. However, if we give them that piece of equipment, we will alter the style of policing and we will equip the police with a weapon that is capable of causing considerable damage. If an attacker were to remove such a weapon from the police, he could then use it against them. On the whole that is considered to be undesirable.