HL Deb 03 February 1993 vol 542 cc223-5

2.57 p.m.

Lord Marlesford asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will ask the Commissioner, under the Interception of Communications Act 1985, to investigate and report on allegations that there has been involvement of government agencies in the interception of telephone calls of members of the Royal Family.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)

My Lords, the Commissioner is independent and does not act on the instruction of Ministers. The security and intelligence agencies were not involved in any way in the interception of telephone calls of the Royal Family.

Lord Marlesford

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that Answer. Does he recognise that these allegations are very serious and widespread and that denials by the Government are, sadly, not enough because all too often in such matters the public regard Ministers as either dupes or liars?

Noble Lords

Oh!

Lord Marlesford

My Lords, that may not be the opinion of Members of your Lordships' House but it is, I fear, the opinion of many people in the country. Does my noble friend agree that the reason for setting up the 1985 arrangements for the judiciary to investigate such allegations was, in the words of Lord Justice Lloyd in his last report: to reassure members of the public that interception of communications is serving an important public objective, and that it is not being abused by the Government, the police or anybody else"?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, of course I accept that these allegations are serious. They were fuelled by unfounded reports in the press. When my noble friend says that some people regard Ministers as "either dupes or liars", I can only say that I hope that that is a minimum of people. Certainly in this case it has no application whatever. I can tell my noble friend that the reason that this was done correctly is that no warrant was issued. Had a warrant been issued, it would have been illegal. The only basis for the issue of a warrant is that it is necessary in the interests of national security or because the information could not be obtained by other means. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has categorical assurances from the heads of agencies that they were not involved.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, I accept that the Government have no power to instruct the Commissioner to undertake an investigation, but will the Minister say whether any employees of government agencies have been questioned on this matter?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has received assurances, which he has questioned, from the heads of agencies that there has been no involvement by the agencies.

Lord Jenkins of Hillhead

My Lords, in the course of allegations about this matter it has been suggested that GCHQ could intercept calls independent of any warrant signed by Secretaries of State. If that is so I should know about it, but as a matter of fact I do not. Is that the position? If by chance it is so, what is the purpose of the system of warrants?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, GCHQ has certain responsibilities for attending to transmission services from overseas, as the noble Lord knows. I can assure him that GCHQ has not been involved in the interception of the telephone calls of the Royal Family.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My Lords, perhaps the Minister did not hear my first question. I did not ask whether the Government had been given assurances; I asked whether, as a matter of fact, any employees of government agencies had been questioned on this matter. If he does not have the answer to that question available, which I would understand, will he be good enough to write to me?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I can assure the noble Lord, as I have tried to explain before, that the Prime Minister has had the assurances from the heads of his departments. The noble Lord wags his head, but if the Prime Minister cannot accept an assurance from heads of departments, the organisation must be very badly run.

Lord Jenkins of Hillhead

My Lords, I apologise for intervening again, but the Minister's answer to me, while helpful up to a point, contained a certain ambiguity about GCHQ's position. Can GCHQ intercept calls outside the system of warrants?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, it would not be appropriate to go into all the details upon which GCHQ operates.

Noble Lords

Oh!

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, no. It would not be appropriate to go into that matter. Interception can be done only with the approval of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. It is done when it is necessary in the interests of national security and when the information cannot be obtained by other means. That applies to whoever it is who intercepts.

Lord Annan

My Lords, I am sure that all Members of the House accept that the security services and GCHQ would not indulge in such an illegal activity; but is it not possible that an employee in one of those agencies may, illicitly and without the knowledge of his superiors, have indulged in such an activity, as was the case with Mr. Peter Wright?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, of course it is always possible for anyone to cheat, and where that cheating is done it is a criminal offence. If anyone thinks that his telephone has been tapped he has the right to complain to the police, because it is a criminal offence, or to the tribunal, to ask for it to be investigated. Of course, anyone can cheat, but my information is, and I have no reason to doubt it, that heads of department have investigated their own departments carefully and clearly, and there has been no intervention.

Lord Marlesford

My Lords, of course I accept my noble friend's assurance, but does he at least agree that it would be appropriate and desirable, even though he has no power to direct the Commissioner, for the new Commissioner, Lord Justice Bingham, to investigate the allegations to reassure those members of the public who may not be reassured by government statements?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, it is up to the Commissioner, Lord Justice Bingham, to decide what matters he wishes to look into. I remind my noble friend, as he quoted the report of Lord Justice Lloyd, that in it Lord Justice Lloyd said: From the start I have been impressed by the determination of the agencies not only to obey the letter of the law, but also the spirit". He goes on to say: I am satisfied that the system is working as intended by Parliament, and is working well".