London Underground: Funding (Hansard, 16 December 1993)

The Minister of State, Department of Transport (The Earl of Caithness)
My Lords, the Government's funding plans for London Transport were announced by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer in his budget on 30th November. These plans are aimed to protect investment in London Transport's existing business, and mean that London Underground should be able to invest more over the next three years than at any time in the 1970s and 1980s.

§ Lord Jay
My Lords, do the Government recognise that after the past few years in which, largely as a result of the underfunding and undermanning of London Transport's maintenance services, there has already been a fatal accident at King's Cross, another serious accident which might well have been fatal three weeks ago on the Central Line and I believe that another was reported today? If the Government persist in underfunding and there is another serious accident, will they not bear a very heavy responsibility?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the accident today to which the noble Lord alludes was a signal failure on the Central Line. That is expected to be corrected by tonight. I can tell the noble Lord (as I am sure he has read in previous issues of Hansard in the past few weeks) that the investment which we are now planning for London Underground is more than at any time since the 1970s and 1980s. In real terms it has considerably increased from previous investment and there will be something like £3 billion invested over the next three years.

§ Lord Ezra
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that last week his noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter asked a similar Question and that in answer to it he was advised that an urgent inquiry into the recent failure due to the electrical circuit was being undertaken by London Underground and that the Government would take serious note of the results of that inquiry? If it should demonstrate that additional expenditure is required to avoid incidents of this sort in future, will the Government be prepared to respond?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I read with interest the Question of my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter. I also remember well the Question 1452 which the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, asked just before that. Therefore, we have covered this territory well. We must see what the report brings forth.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, are the Government aware, despite what the noble Earl said about what happened this morning, that 20,000 passengers were held up for nearly three hours in the early rush hour in the East End of London because of yet another signal failure, which is becoming almost a weekly occurrence? Is the Minister further aware that London Transport officials have said that that will be a very frequent cause of failure unless the Government increase their funding?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, what the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, would have read was my reply to the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, of about 10 days ago. I then said that 50 per cent. of the signal faults were on the Central Line, which is why that line had been prioritised and why so much money was being spent to update it.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, is the Minister aware that Sir Wilfrid Newton, the chairman of London Transport, has said that the sum which the Government are in fact allocating is, nowhere near what we need to run a decently modern metro"? So despite all the complacent talk of the Minister, is it not a fact that the people who are seeking to run the Underground are grossly dissatisfied and recognise that what has been happening over the course of the past few weeks, and even today, represents a serious danger to the safety and well-being of the metropolis?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, there is no complacency whatever in what I said. The proposed investment by London Underground, with taxpayers' money, will be the highest in real terms at any time since the 1970s and 1980s. We appreciate that there is a considerable amount of work to do. Does the noble Lord recall the investment (in 1993–94 prices) of what happened under his government when he was a Minister? In 1977 they cut the investment very nearly in half to a mere £83 million compared with an expected out-turn of £464 million this year.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, is it not futile for the Minister to go back to a period more than 14 years ago? Should he not in fact seek to dwell on the present? Is it not a fact that the ideological hatred of public transport on the part of the Thatcherites is still not being rectified by this gang of Majorettes?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, of course the noble Lord does not like my answer because his, government may be exposed for the sham which they carried out. If he looks at the figures he will see that there has been a consistent overall improvement in investment in London Underground since the Conservatives came to power.

§ Lord Marlesford
My Lords, to move to a perhaps more mundane and more topical level, does my noble friend have any information to give on the introduction of stored value tickets for London Underground—with which, of course, Sir Wilfrid Newton will be fully familiar as they are used throughout Hong Kong? They 1453 would not only make it much cheaper to issue a ticket but would also greatly reduce the frustration of travellers who all to often find that the ticket machines which are meant to give change have the sign "exact money only". That of itself is a reflection of the sloppy management of London Underground.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, my noble friend asks a most interesting question, but I believe it is a little wide of the Question on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Jay
My Lords, the Minister gave figures. Has he also read the Government's own excellent Red Book on the Budget which shows, on page 119, that the external finance available to London Transport last year was £880 million and that for the present year it has been reduced to £720 million?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, indeed I have read the Red Book. We discussed that with the noble Lords, Lord Peston and Lord Barnett, only a week ago.

§ Lord Bottomley
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the Arthritics' Society of Woodford made representations that both entrances to the station should remain open? Cannot the Government at least authorise some funds to enable that to be done?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the Government have authorised funds at record levels. It is up to London Underground management to apportion those funds in the way they think best.