British Forces Equipment Exhibitions (Hansard, 15 December 1993)

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, British forces equipment exhibitions enable a wide range of British defence equipment to be shown to potential customers. Invitations to attend are issued on a confidential basis. However, the display of a particular item does not mean that we would be prepared to agree its sale to all the countries invited.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, in that case, why do the Government wish to conceal who is being invited? If invitations were issued only to those people who had no reason to be there secretly there would be no problem. I was told when I asked for a list of those going that I could not have a list because some of the people who were going did not want anyone else to know that they were there. Are not the Government deceiving not just the people of their own country but the world community? Will the Minister tell us if there is any reason why there should be any secrecy about this matter?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, the Government have no intention of deceiving anyone. It has been the consistent practice of successive Administrations not to reveal details of the invitations issued. Those invitations are issued on a confidential basis. We believe that it would be a breach of trust to disclose the details.

§ Lord Ironside
My Lords, is my noble friend aware—he may take credit from the fact—that the 16 countries which were blacklisted by the United Nations, the European Council of Ministers and ourselves were not among the 64 countries invited to attend the last combined RN and Army exhibition at Aldershot? Does he agree with me that defence equipment exhibitions, including the Farnborough Airshow and overseas exhibitions, such as SATORY in France and DEFENDORY in Greece, are vital showcases for our industries? Therefore, will he ensure that in future the attendance list at those exhibitions is kept as open as security will allow? The whole question of whether an export licence can be given can then be considered at a later date.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, my noble friend is right to point out that the important part of this general question is that of export licences. I am delighted that he has given me the opportunity to make it clear that we do not sell to any countries which are subject to international arms embargoes. In addition, harking back to the previous Question about manufacturing industry, the importance of defence-related manufacturing industry to our country is great.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, in that case, why does the Minister not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Ironside, that the list of invitees to those exhibitions should be properly published? If we are not going to sell to those who are on an embargo list, we are not going to sell to them. Why not make the whole thing public as the open government White Paper would persuade us should be the case? Can we further assume that Iraq will not be invited to future exhibitions?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, as to the last part of the noble Lord's question, he is probably aware that Iraq is subject to an international arms embargo and therefore falls within the answer that I gave to my noble friend. As to the first part of his question, as I said in my first supplementary answer, it has been the practice of successive Administrations not to disclose such information. It is confidential, and we believe that that is the way to keep it. If, of course, an order from an overseas country is lodged, such orders often receive considerable publicity in this country as we and the companies involved wish to boast of their achievements in winning those orders.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, the House will welcome the fact that we do not supply to countries that are prohibited under international arms embargoes. But will the Minister confirm that, apart from the international obligations which have been mentioned, our Government's guidelines are firm, and that we will not supply arms to countries which practise terrorism or which have a long record of abuse of human rights?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I restate the point I made earlier, that we do not sell to countries subject to any international arms embargo. So far as concerns human rights, when we look at the possibility of an export licence, they are scrutinised carefully. If we believe that any of the equipment for which an export 1360 licence is being sought is likely to be used for repressive purposes against the civilian population, that application would be rejected.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, as we are signatories to three different sets of arms control guidelines—those promulgated by the United Nations Security Council, and the CSCE and the Council of Europe—will the Minister consider the desirability of harmonising those three sets of guidelines, only two of which refer to human rights considerations, and of calling an international conference of those engaged in this trade, to ensure that there is no competition among them, so that one country refusing to sell arms to a country that violates human rights, as in the case of American sales of the F.16 to Indonesia, is not replaced by supply by another less scrupulous country?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, we are responsible for what we do. I used the words "international arms embargoes" in the plural to cover the different sources of the embargoes mentioned by the noble Lord. I reiterate that, when we look at individual export licences, we take into account the human rights position in the country in question and the possible use to which the equipment might be put.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, will the Minister give the House the assurance that if these are guidelines—I take it that we may take his word on this—those guidelines will under no circumstances be changed, or modified slightly, without Parliament being informed?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I presume that when the noble Lord speaks of guidelines he means the international arms embargoes I have made it as clear as I can, now, I believe, for the third or fourth time, that we would not sell to countries subject to those embargoes.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, I mean the Government's own guidelines.

§ Lord Marlesford
My Lords, given that the reputation of British weapons systems has been pre-eminent in international circles, at least since the Battle of Agincourt, is it not desirable that we should focus sometimes upon the need to sustain and encourage our defence industries, which have contributed so much to our economy over many decades?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, my noble friend is right. As I said earlier, the defence industry forms an important part of our manufacturing base. Defence exports support approximately 145,000 UK jobs. Yarrow shipyard on the Clyde, in an area of high unemployment, recently received a contract from the Malaysian Government to build two frigates there at a value of £400 million. That will secure ernployment in areas which badly need such employment.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is not the noble Lord aware that his noble friend Lord Ironside pointed out an inconsistency in the Government's position? Is it not the case that an invitation to buy does not mean a 1361 decision to sell? In that case, what reason is there for concealing those who are coming to buy? An open list of those who are invited would, I suggest, avoid suspicion on the one hand and inconsistency on the other.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I do not suppose that there is much that I can say to allay the suspicions which the noble Lord has about most defence matters. I repeat what I said. We believe that revealing the details of overseas visitors and representatives of countries visiting those exhibitions may be regarded by them as prejudicial to their national interest. We believe that that is the important point. We then have the security of the export licence to ensure that our weapons sales do not fall into the hands of those who are likely to use them in a repressive way.