Haiti: Sanctions (Hansard, 8 December 1993)

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, in support of the United Nations activities and in the interests of regional stability, Ministers agreed to allow the West Indies guardship, HMS "Active", to participate in operations to implement sanctions. That participation did not adversely affect HMS "Active's" programme or responsibilities and was accomplished at no extra cost to Her Majesty's Government.

§ Lord Moyne
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply, the second half of which was extremely reassuring. I note that we are blockading Haiti in accordance with a United Nations resolution. But we'do not obey all UN resolutions, notably the ones in the Middle East. Can the Minister say what is the principle of selection and why we obey the United Nations in some respects and not others?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, in the West Indies we have an interest in maintaining regional stability because of the dependent territories for which 949 we are responsible. In addition, we fully support UN efforts to restore democracy in Haiti, where horrendous breaches of human rights have taken place.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, it is suggested that we should be selective regarding whether or not we respond to decisions taken by the United Nations. Will the Minister take it from me that basically we should support United Nations initiatives? If we do not, we cannot expect other countries to rally in support of them.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord and agree with him. In the specific case of Haiti, since the overthrow of President Aristide, Haitians have endured widespread violations of fundamental human rights, including detention without trial, torture, abduction and murder.

§ Baroness Blackstone
My Lords, on these Benches we strongly agree with the Minister regarding the importance of re-establishing democracy in Haiti and all efforts to do so should continue. But can the Minister tell the House what the next steps will be in that difficult situation? For example, can he say what is the Government's position to be in discussions with the US Government and within the UN if Mr. Malval, the Prime Minister of Haiti, should resign, as he is currently threatening to do?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, the next step in the process will be a meeting which the French are hosting for the "Friends of Haiti", who are the United States, France, Canada and Venezuela. Those four countries are meeting in Paris on 13th and 14th December to discuss the next steps. Senor Caputo, the UN and OAS special envoy, has agreed to attend. Obviously, we shall be interested in the outcome of that meeting.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, in answer to the supplementary of the noble Lord, Lord Moyne, is not the Government's position that in United Nations matters they follow the policy of the United States, whereas in nuclear matters they are currently quarrelling with the United States? The Americans would rather that we got rid of some of our nuclear weapons but the Government quite obstinately refuse to do so.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I shall leave the latter part of the noble Lord's question to my noble friend Lord Cranborne, with whom he conducts a weekly dialogue on the subject. As to the first part, I reiterate what I think I said in my first reply to my noble friend. We have interests in the West Indies. It is in our interests and in the interests of those dependent territories that we have stability in that area.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether we are interested in restoring democracy in all countries in the world or just some? If the answer is the latter, can he say on what criteria we decide which countries we will assist and which we will not?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, we pursue a policy which encourages democracy in all parts 950 of the world. Indeed, our policy as far as concerns NATO and the defence of the West proved to be enormously successful when democracy came to all those countries on the other side of the Iron Curtain—without too much help over many years from many of the friends of the party opposite. In the case of Haiti, as noble Lords will know, President Aristide won an election in November 1990. He was inaugurated in January 1991. General Cedras led an army coup against him in September 1991. Since that date we have, along with our friends in that area, pursued a policy of attempting to restore democracy to the island.

§ Lord Richard
My Lords, on reflection, does the Minister feel that it would be rather wise of him to withdraw that unworthy remark he made about the Opposition?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I say to the noble Lord that I think I said "some members of the Opposition".

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, is there any evidence that Haiti, under whatever government, has ever tried to destabilise any other West Indian country or dependent territory?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, I do not think that I can directly answer that question. But I would say to the noble Lord that the violence and violation of human rights that go on in the Haitian part of the island are the kind of thing that could easily spread to other parts of the West Indies. It has to be in our interest and in the interests of the people of the other countries in the West Indies that we prevent that.

§ Lord Moyne
My Lords, is it the Minister's position that there were no violations of human rights when President Aristide was in power?

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, President Aristide was allowed to be in power for such a short time that I do not think that one could make any fundamental judgment on what his regime might have been if it had been allowed to survive. The simple fact of the matter is that since the army took over, the situation in that country has been very unhappy and indeed very bloody.