§ 2.56 p.m.
§ Viscount Hanworth asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether, in view of the importance to some countries of generating electricity from coal, they would support an international approach to research and development of clean coal solutions; and whether they have taken action to this end.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Baroness Denton of Wakefield)My Lords, the development of clean coal technologies is a global issue and my department is already supporting 30 projects involving United Kingdom and overseas companies, the European Community, the International Energy Agency and the United States.
§ Viscount HanworthMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Does she consider that the coal-topping cycle is the most likely to be successful and that, if so, funds will be required for a demonstration plant? Secondly, will the Minister explain the position on the research which is being carried out in the United States?
§ Baroness Denton of WakefieldMy Lords, a substantial part of the additional £12 million of new money for coal research announced in the coal White Paper will be spent on the key components of the topping cycle because it is viewed as being of great importance. However, during the review my honourable friends had close discussions with a number of companies about the level of support required for demonstration projects. It was clear from those discussions that in the present market conditions none of the projects was economic. In view of the fact that such a plant would therefore not materially affect the number of coal mines kept in operation in the United Kingdom during this decade, it was considered inappropriate to spend public money in that area. I assure the noble Viscount that we are working extremely closely with the United States, where there is a memorandum of understanding. Its work in this field is advanced and the benefits will come to Britain in due course.
§ Lord Mason of BarnsleyMy Lords, is the Minister aware that, as regards cleaner coal power station technology, we began development on the fluidised bed, especially at Grimesthorpe near Barnsley, in which other nations participated and gave financial help? Do I now take it that Her Majesty's Government have withdrawn their support from the development of fluidised beds and that the research has gone abroad? What is the latest position?
§ Baroness Denton of WakefieldMy Lords, I am delighted to confirm the noble Lord's remarks. Much work was done in developing technologies to improve the efficiency of coal utilisation. Indeed, during the past 10 years the United Kingdom public sector, with support from the European Community, invested more than £1 billion in that area. Currently the DTI is involved in 60 projects with a contract value of about £120 million. Those are assessed on values coming forward.
The Earl of HalsburyMy Lords, does the Minister agree that the problem is not to find a clean coal solution but to choose between a substantial number of different clean coal solutions in order that, in making haste slowly, we shall not pay too high a premium for prototype development?
§ Baroness Denton of WakefieldMy Lords, as usual the noble Earl puts the issue in an extremely straightforward way.
§ Lord Dean of BeswickMy Lords, the Minister will have noticed that the noble Viscount's Question is about the international rather than the domestic clean coal situation. Is the Minister aware that the last time on which there was a full debate on energy in your Lordships' House, the figure quoted for the increase in coal-fired power stations internationally, taking into account China, was enormous? I hope that the Government will continue to press for international agreement for cleaner power stations, otherwise we shall fall behind and not move forward, as we should all like to do.
§ Baroness Denton of WakefieldMy Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Dean, for that question. The size of the issues is such that they must be played on an international platform. I am delighted to confirm that we have 30 joint contracts.
§ Lord EzraMy Lords, in the recent coal review the implications were that the Government would not agree to finance any major demonstration plant in clean coal technology in this country. Does the noble Baroness agree that other countries would be left to develop those technologies? As it is a matter of such great importance to the British coal industry and one about which the coal review was concerned, is that not regrettable and should we not make greater efforts in that regard?
§ Baroness Denton of WakefieldMy Lords, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Ezra, misunderstands the situation when he says that we are not making efforts. 9 We are indeed making efforts. We are collaborating internationally, which means that we do not waste taxpayers' money.
§ Lord PestonMy Lords, to pursue the international theme raised by my noble friend Lord Dean, I should like to ask the noble Baroness whether we realise the scale of the problem. If the Chinese communist state becomes remotely economically successful and, for that matter, if the Soviet economy gets going again, both countries will go forward using conventional coal technology. Am I not right to say that the consequences for atmospheric pollution are massive compared with anything which is happening in this country? Is the international collaboration to which the noble Baroness referred on a scale which will save the environment or shall we not be saying simply that it is too late and that the damage has been done?
§ Baroness Denton of WakefieldMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Peston, draws attention to an extremely important point. While looking at the clean coal technology, about which the noble Viscount asks, the Government are looking at options, recognising that environmental issues will move forward extremely quickly. My honourable friend the Minister of State for Energy will visit the United States in the near future to discuss further the size of the issues we face. I assure the noble Lord that we do not underestimate them.
§ Lord PestonMy Lords, I should like to put on record a further point. The problem is—
§ Lord PestonMy Lords, perhaps the noble Lord will hold his horses and wait to hear what I have to say.
§ Lord PestonMy Lords, I am well aware of that but it is not this Question which has taken up the time. The more that the noble Lord interrupts me, the longer it will take for me to ask my question, which I shall ask. Is not the central point that new technology will be more expensive than existing technology? Therefore, there is no reason to believe that the main users will use it.
§ Baroness Denton of WakefieldMy Lords, the development of new technology obviously concerns itself with costs as well as environmental issues. It is important that we share those with all our partners.