Part-time Courses: Tuition Fees (Hansard, 22 April 1993)

§ The Minister of State, Department for Education (Baroness Blatch)
My Lords, mandatory awards are restricted by law mainly to full-time and sandwich courses leading to first degrees or other qualifications; for example, higher national diplomas. They cover tuition fees so that full-time access is not inhibited by lack of means. Part-time courses are funded from a variety of sources and a single nationally prescriptive scheme would not be appropriate.

§ Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. As she admitted in a recent letter to me, the institutional costs for part-time courses are significantly less than they are for full-time courses. In those circumstances, why do the Government insist on active fee discrimination against part-time students attempting to enhance their skills when the noble Baroness herself admits that that is inefficient and a waste of taxpayers' money?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, perhaps I may put the noble Lord right. I have the letter in my file here. I did not say that the system was inefficient. I gave some factual information about a part-time course being less expensive than a full-time course. I believe that noble Lords in all parts of the House will accept that. I went on to say that it is a matter of priorities. The Government have taken it upon themselves to make sure that those who are qualified have access to full-time courses. As I said in my initial reply, 1709 part-time courses are funded from a variety of sources, which argues ag[...]nst a single nationally prescriptive scheme.

§ Lord Eatwell
My Lords, will the noble Baroness explain why she regards courses which cost less as not being more efficient?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I was addressing costs in my letter, not efficiency. If the noble Lord wishes to consider efficiency, which he referred to in a previous debate, perhaps I may advise him that measuring the benefits of part-time or full-time courses can only be done a long time after the event. If one meets somebody who is successful in any walk of life, it is pretty difficult to single out that it was a part-time course, undertaken some years earlier, that accounts for that success. Many factors account for success. Meanwhile, many part-time courses are paid for by people who are already in employment, by their employers or by all sorts of other means. Higher education itself even helps some young people and some mature people to take part-time courses.

§ Baroness Jeger
My Lords, may I as a graduate of Birkbeck College, that most splendid of academic institutions, point out that nobody paid my fees as a part-time student? I attended there when I was earning £3 a week and the full-time students were spending more time on demos than I was working for my £3. Will the Government consider the possibility of allowing tuition expenses which are paid by the individual student and not supplemented from anywhere else to be offset against tax? It seems most unfair that part-time students have to pay their fees out of their taxed income. That seems a penal set-up. Will the Minister ask the Government to look at that aspect?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, all noble Lords will readily recognise the benefits of the study which the noble Baroness undertook at Birkbeck College. We know that it was time well spent. The particular question that the noble Baroness raises is not one for my department; it is for the Treasury. I shall, of course, make sure that it is aware of what the noble Baroness has said.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, is the Minister aware that many part-time students are studying foreign languages? Is it not in the national interest that they should be encouraged to do so in view of the fact that we lag very much behind other countries in proficiency in that respect?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the noble Lord makes an important point. Indeed, this Government have not only made it possible for but are requiring all young people in secondary schools to learn a second language. That is a very good start. As part of their main courses, most further and higher institutions offer ancillary courses in modern languages. So, yes, the noble Lord's general point is an important one, but the Question suggests that the cost of all part-time courses should be met by the state. There is a 1710 difference between us. We have to order our priorities and the Government have made a decision about priorities.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, can my noble friend say what would be the cost of meeting that request?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I cannot be very specific because one never knows—one cannot quantify—how many students would take advantage of any grants. However, I can say that it would be a very expensive option.

§ Baroness Lockwood
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, as a result of local authorities decreasing the number of discretionary awards that they are making, a number of universities and other institutions fear that there will be a severe decline in the number of part-time students on degree courses?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the evidence does not bear that out at the moment. Local authority expenditure on discretionary awards continues to rise. We have a survey in train at the moment. The Gulbenkian Foundation and the Sir John Cass's Foundation have asked the National Foundation for Educational Research (the NFER) to undertake a survey. It will look at local authorities' actual expenditure on discretionary awards and at the kind of courses that are supported by local authorities. It will report later in the year.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, would it not be a lovely day if the Opposition would occasionally start sniping at the Government for not holding back their Budget deficit instead of every day devising more ways of spending money?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, my noble and learned friend is absolutely right. It is only a matter of hours since this House was again, with gay abandon, considering full-time education being made available to all three and four year-olds. We made the point at the time that it would only be a short time before this House was again being pressed by the Opposition to spend yet more money on 16-plus education. Spending on 16-plus education is at record levels and is very much higher than it was when we inherited Government in 1979.

§ Lord Callaghan of Cardiff
My Lords, despite the maledictions of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, I do not think that it would be wrong to say that there is considerable sympathy on both sides of the House for those who, in addition to earning their living, are at the same time studying and doing a great deal of work that will no doubt be not only of individual benefit, but also of national benefit. With her considerable influence, will not the noble Baroness put her shoulder behind the request that some improvement should be made in the taxation provisions for part-time students? When she tells the Treasury that this issue has been raised, will she say that she agrees with it?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I shall certainly ensure that the information that has been part of the debate 1711 is passed on to the appropriate place. It is difficult to generalise. First, even within the allocations to higher and further education, the Government only this year asked the Higher Education Funding Council to give double weighting to part-time education. So even within the allocation we have given it a priority. Part-time students receive some money from local authorities and frequently from employers. Many higher education institutions (the research councils for example) make some fees available to students, and many companies support their employees in taking part in part-time education. Yes, there is agreement that it is an important part of education, but we must not, again, talk down what we have so far achieved.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, are we not always being told that it is the Conservative Party's policy to help those who help themselves? Here we have a situation, despite what the Minister said, of young people who are themselves paying for their own further education, which is mostly vocational. Surely the Government should do something more to help those people who, as I say, are helping themselves and costing the country virtually nothing.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, it is a real policy of the Government which we have supported not just in spirit but in kind. We have had the largest growth of people in part-time education post-16 and we are spending at record levels. At the end of the day, it is still a matter of priorities. If we are talking about full state provision, that money has to be found, and someone has to pay for it. We now have a variety of sources and an increase in the number of people we can help. We should continue to encourage growth in that sector in that way.

§ Lord Judd
My Lords, will the Minister please clarify the matter? If it is indeed correct, as my noble friend Lord Eatwell said, that this is the most cost-effective form of higher education, why is there a disincentive for students to undertake it? Is not this another example of the hollowness of the rings about one nation—those who are in full time education receive the support that they do, but those who struggle to gain access to higher education in addition to their employment are penalised?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I repeat, the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, referred to the actual costs of part-time education as compared to the costs of full-time education. It is clear that it is less costly to provide a part-time course than it is to provide a full-time course. I also went on to say that there is no conclusive evidence about the benefits. It is difficult to be conclusive about benefits because they come much later. When someone has made a success of his life, or even found his life more fulfilling, it is not easy to attribute it only to full-time or part-time study. The Open University did such a study and found it almost impossible to reach a definitive view about it. I am aware that the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, says that research has been done, but we have not so far found evidence of that research.

§ Lord Eatwell
My Lords, perhaps I may agree with the Minister about what she has just said. Lecturers at Cambridge all know that the way to become a millionaire is to get a Cambridge third. However, to return to the Question on the Order Paper, the Minister referred earlier to universities and colleges themselves providing fee support for part-time students. How can there be any incentive for universities to expand part-time education when, if they give the support, that will be a drain on their already limited resources?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I have already referred to one of the ways; that is, in funding higher education there is a flattening of full-time courses and weighting given to part-time courses. That encourages institutions to consider the idea of part-time courses. I mentioned the research councils. The Economic and Social Research Council will be introducing a scheme this autumn for social science postgraduate students. That is another way to help people on part-time courses.