Slaughter-houses: EC Regulations (Hansard, 14 April 1993)

The Parliamentary Secretary, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Earl Howe)
My Lords, I am satisfied that the Fresh Meat (Hygiene and Inspection) Regulations fairly reflect the requirements of the EC red meat directive and consolidate them with previous GB legislation. As one might expect, other member states have reached different stages of implementation but we have no evidence to indicate that their interpretation of specific requirements is different from that of the UK.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, are the Government trying to persuade us that a small number of large slaughter-houses rather than many small ones is a better bet for animals, for producers and for customers; that somehow or other veterinary inspection has a contribution to make which the EHOs were unable to make; and that the regulations in force here are a faithful echo of the directive and do not contain considerable ministerial guidance in addition? Is the Minister aware that his reference to previous legislation heightens my suspicions in that respect?

Earl Howe
My Lords, the Government have made extensive efforts to minimise the burdens and costs which small slaughter-houses have to bear. We take their problems very seriously. I believe that consumers would have cause to worry if they thought that animals in this country were slaughtered while in a diseased or unfit condition. Vets are uniquely qualified to spot symptoms of diseases in animals and conditions which have significant implications for public health but which may well not be visible at the post-mortem inspection. It is essential to spot and deal with such animals before they get into the human food chain. That is why veterinary supervision is the practice in all other major meat producing countries.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that I am bewildered, as I am sure are many other people, at the reply he has just given? Is he aware that slaughter-houses have operated in this country for donkeys' years—

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
—for a very long time with meat inspectors sent in by the local authorities who have done the job very successfully? Will he confirm that the word "veterinary" means something quite different on the Continent, and that in most 1063 abattoirs on the Continent they have unqualified inspectors and not people with veterinary qualifications as we know them?

Earl Howe
My Lords, veterinary surgeons' qualifications are harmonised throughout the EC and have been for many years. There is no distinction in qualification whether the directive refers to "veterin-ary officer" or "veterinary surgeon", and there is no difference in the standard of training. All member states require veterinary supervision ante mortem. The degree to which slaughter-houses are required to be subject to such supervision may vary, as it does in the UK, according to the size of the premises. Veterinary supervision is a prerequisite of world and intra-Community trade in meat, which is why for a number of years more than half the meat produced in this country, as well as all the meat which we import, is subject to veterinary supervision.

§ Lord Skelmersdale
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that veterinary inspections are only a part of this problem? Will he accept that the other part of the problem relates to the storage and keeping of meat under forms of refrigeration? Will he confirm that that also is a factor in the regulations? Can he say whether the local authorities and the environmental health officers do in fact go rather further than the regulations ever intended?

Earl Howe
My Lords, I believe I said in reply to a Question some time ago that we have to be alert to the possibility that local authorities may be enforcing the regulations inconsistently. However, my noble friend made a very good point. What counts as hygienic or unhygienic in terms of slaughtering practice has not changed in United Kingdom law. I am afraid that our previous legislation has not been properly enforced. There can be no compromise where filthy or unhygienic practices put at risk consumer safety.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that there is no difficulty in any of the member states in interpreting the regulations? Is it not the case that although the meaning of the regulations is fully understood, in some member states there is a deliberate endeavour not to enforce? Is that not the root of the problem, particularly among those countries in the EC, including some major states, that have corrupt administrations?

Earl Howe
My Lords, all member states except Great Britain already have veterinary supervision of abattoirs and therefore do not need to take action to implement that aspect of the directive. We looked carefully into the issue of uniform enforcement. All our inquiries indicate that the level of veterinary supervision required by MAFF guidance to local authorities is lower than in Germany, Denmark, Ireland and Italy and comparable with France and the Netherlands.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, would the noble Earl care to say what the Government mean by "veterinary supervision"? Do they mean that every 1064 pig, hen or bullock slaughtered has to be inspected by a qualified veterinary surgeon with eight years of training?

Earl Howe
My Lords, my previous replies have indicated that the broad answer to that question is yes, certainly as regards ante mortem inspection. We have said to local authorities that the level of veterinary attendance should be proportionate to the through-put of the particular plant. We have sought to protect low through-put slaughter-houses by exempting them from inspection during slaughter and allowing them to use large animal practitioners—in other words, farm vets—for supervision if need be. But what we should not and will not now do is to relax the requirement for veterinary inspection ante mortem because that process ensures that public health is properly protected.

§ Lord Pearson of Rannoch
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that whether or not these regulations are harmonised, they may not be a very good idea in any case? Recent research shows that they have had the effect of driving away the normal bugs and microbes that usually inhabit a piece of raw meat. They have been replaced by new bugs and microbes of a much more virulent kind which are far more harmful to humans. Will he accept that since these regulations were introduced the result has been that cases of food poisoning from meat have increased by some 47 per cent.?

Earl Howe
My Lords, my noble friend referred to incidents of food poisoning but perhaps he should look at the causes of that poisoning. That has been laid at the door much more of culinary practices than of anything that happens in slaughter-houses.

§ Lord Monkswell
My Lords, did the Minister see last night the television programme which raised serious issues and anxiety about the practices in British slaughter-houses and the infection of the human food chain by BSE? Can he give an undertaking that the Government are seriously reviewing their restrictions on slaughter-house practice in respect of BSE? Can he give any indication of whether BSE is prevalent in any country in the EC other than the United Kingdom?

Earl Howe
My Lords, the last part of the noble Lord's question falls somewhat outside the Question on the Order Paper. We take the incidence of BSE extremely seriously. That is one of the main reasons why veterinary supervision ante mortem is so very important.

The Viscount of Oxfuird
My Lords, is the Minister aware that my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter and I use the same butcher? He is a singular man by the name of Mr. Machonachie. He wears a straw hat and has an immense sense of humour. I visited him the other day only to discover that there was a "For Sale" notice outside his shop. On asking him why it was there, he said, "I have had enough of Brussels' legislation". I looked into the matter more deeply and acquired the statutory instrument concerned. Will the Minister confirm that the Explanatory Memorandum 1065 distinctly excludes butchers' shops? Does he agree that we are entering a state in which both the press and ill informed people dictate what happens even at the very lowest level?

Earl Howe
My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend is not alone in his concern for the small butcher's shop. There is nothing in the directive to which I referred in my original Answer which in any way impacts on the butcher's shop. The rules for hygiene in such premises have remained unchanged for many years.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, could the noble Earl indicate the regulations after the meat has left the abattoir and before it is delivered to the butcher's shop? In the high street of our local town I frequently see a lorry with the back open and completely uncovered sides of pork hanging there, subjected to fumes, flies and everything else. That meat is then carried over the porter's shoulder, which is not necessarily as clean as it should be, into the butcher's shop. What protection do we have against infection which arises at that stage?

Earl Howe
My Lords, the circumstances described by the noble Countess appear prima facie to infringe the meat hygiene rules on the transportation of meat which have been in existence for many years.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the chief environmental health officer of the Department of Health stated in February that the regulations: have specific requirements which I frankly find it hard to believe are closely related to the protection of public health"? Does the Minister's department agree with that statement?

Earl Howe
My Lords, the independent report which the Government recently commissioned from Dr. Johnston and Mr. Spurr confirmed that overall the requirements that the Government now impose did not go beyond what was needed to rectify structure-related hygiene problems. Indeed, it criti-cised MAFF in some instances for not being rigorous enough. So we are applying the rules sensibly, and that will continue.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, I asked the Minister whether his department agreed with the statement of the chief environmental officer of the Department of Health who said that the regulations: have specific requirements which I frankly find it hard to believe are closely related to the protection of public health". Will he reply to that question?

Earl Howe
My Lords, I fully agree with the conclusions in the report and the Government will look into them.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, will my noble friend make arrangements for translations of the orders published in other member countries to be placed in the Library so that noble Lords have a good opportunity to compare how far departments in each country make a contribution in amplifying those directives which is not justified?

Earl Howe
My Lords, I am happy to give my noble friend an undertaking that we shall do our best to acquire the regulations from all other member states. It may take a little time but, as and when we receive them, we shall place copies in the Library.