Armed Forces: Complaints Procedure (Hansard, 28 October 1992)

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Viscount Cranborne)
My Lords, there are no plans to appoint a parliamentary ombudsman. Service personnel are more aware than ever of the avenues open to them within the chain of command should they wish to make a complaint.

§ Lord Ashley of Stoke
My Lords, service personnel are aware of the avenues but some of them are afraid of reprisals and that is the reason they do not complain. We all recognise the need for strong, tough, well-trained soldiers. We recognise that the Ministry of Defence is against bullying and brutality. 1120 Nevertheless, it still goes on, as recent events have shown, and we therefore need a fresh approach. Instead of waiting for the Special Investigation Branch to investigate and for courts martial to be initiated following horrific events can we not do more to prevent such acts? We could provide to young servicemen a new channel of approach for complaints without the fear of reprisals. An armed services ombudsman—a man of authority and impartiality—may well be a major step forward.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, the noble Lord is well known for his advocacy of that specific device. Service personnel already have access to independent and impartial advice from a number of sources. In particular, of late the Ministry of Defence has placed special emphasis on the representatives of the WRVS,89 of whom are in place in service establishments all over the world. The initial reports of that initiative support the view that the effects the noble Lord describes as flowing from a potential ombudsman's appointment are already beginning to take effect from the efforts of those admirable ladies.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware—I believe he indicated that he is—that the present organisation inside the defence forces is perfectly adequate? To create a special ombudsman, as suggested by the noble Lord opposite, would be a waste of everybody's time.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. Perhaps I may point out to him and to the noble Lord opposite, as I have many times before in your Lordships' House, that the number of sustainable charges of bullying, which is something that particularly concerns the noble Lord, Lord Ashley, has substantially decreased over the past three years. In 1989 there were 25 substantiated cases of bullying; in 1990,11; eight in 1991, and I am glad to say that in the year so far there have been five.

Lord Winstanley
My Lords, further to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, and the noble Viscount's answer, am I right in thinking that the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration, as he now is, is able to consider matters of maladministration in connection with the armed forces? The noble Viscount may recollect the case of the people in Sachsenhausen. A report to the House of Commons was finally produced in connection with the armed forces which found against the then Foreign Secretary.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I am grateful for the noble Lord's comments. He is as aware as I am of the rules that govern the present parliamentary commissioner. All of us in our time in the other place have used his services.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that he is somewhat less than accommodating to my noble friend today than he is on other occasions? Would he recognise that members of the armed forces are servants of the Crown and understandably they have to have a certain discipline? But within that there may be difficulties in enforcing 1121 discipline within the bounds in which it should be enforced. If they are servants of the Crown, as they are, and if enforcing discipline or offences go outside what is properly established as being a requirement for the armed forces, should not those men have appeal to the organisation that represents the Crown in Parliament and sets up a standing army, as we know, every year? I refer to a parliamentary commissioner. What is wrong with that?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, the support of the noble Lord for his noble friend is always entirely admirable. I do not in any way impugn the motives behind his question. However, the existing chain of command has many, and in our view adequate, steps which a serviceman is able to take. I admit that for a young soldier of, let us say, 19 years of age to go over the head of his sergeant major to his colonel is an enormous step and would seem to be a high mountain to climb. It is for that reason that I place specific emphasis on the efforts made for outside bodies to be available to the soldiers. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Ashley, we received good reports of the reaction of servicemen to the efforts of the WRVS in particular in that regard.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, in the face of that admission, should we not then ask ourselves what recourse is available for the young soldier, sailor or airman which will not reflect on him?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, the procedures within the existing chain of command are available to the soldier. The advice he is given outside the chain of command at the moment seems to be working well. I am sure that your Lordships will be aware that increasingly the amount of publicity given to the smaller number of cases of bullying, for instance, within the armed forces—which we enormously regret and deplore—is an additional guarantee to the forces that in practical terms proper measures will be observed to ensure that any residual practices of that kind are stamped out.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, does not the noble Viscount agree that the case for an ombudsman for conscript armed forces is a good deal stronger than for volunteer professional services? May I ask whether he has made inquiries among the ranks of the services as to whether there is a demand for an ombudsman?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I have not made inquiries of that kind. But the principal personnel officers of all three services have kept a close watch on the question, particularly as it is an extremely topical one—as your Lordships made clear. At the moment there appears to be no demand. Certainly in my office, which is responsible for this aspect of service discipline, I have received no representations from the forces. The only representations I have received so far are those from the noble Lord, Lord Ashley.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, will the Minister consider the matter again? The Ministry of Defence is modern and up to date. It is a completely different Army from 1122 that of years ago. It is a different world. There is nothing wrong with an ombudsman. We have nothing to hide. Why do we not arrange it?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I would be the first to agree that the world is changing and changing extremely fast. Certainly social attitudes have changed dramatically, notably as a result of the government of my noble friend Lady Thatcher. We must be practical and pragmatic in these matters. We keep a close watch on the anxieties expressed by the noble Lords, Lord Mellish and Lord Ashley. If there appeared to he a demand and a justification for the solution proposed by the noble Lord I would not oppose it in principle. At the moment we are satisfied with what is in place.

§ Lord Ashley of Stoke
My Lords, I warmly appreciate the noble Viscount's reply. It was constructive and concerned. But I regret that he could not accept my suggestion. Will he accept that simply quoting numbers of complaints is misleading? Many soldiers who are bullied and brutalised are afraid of reporting that fact. The letters I receive prove that fact. Please do not be taken in by the numbers. On a point of independence, the WRVS plays only a peripheral role. The central body judging the problem is the Army itself. Just as doctors should not investigate doctors, nor the police investigate the police, the Army should not investigate the Army. It should be an independent body like the ombudsman.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I understand clearly the noble Lord's point. However, a number of procedures are in place which are usable and regularly used, as he is aware. Should it become plain that they are not working, that justice is not being done and above all that young soldiers are not being protected, I shall be the first to re-examine the matter. Should the noble Lord then wish to return to the charge on this matter I would be the last person to stand in his way.