Community Care: Funding (Hansard, 22 October 1992)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Baroness Cumberlege)
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Carter, as a doughty fighter for ring fencing, will have been pleased to have heard my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health announce her intention to introduce a ring-fenced special transitional grant for community care.

§ Lord Carter
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Is she aware that the White Paper Caring for People expressly rejected the case for ring fencing, saying that a large-scale specific grant is not necessary to secure the community care objectives. What has 851 brought about this extremely welcome U-turn? Can she also indicate those areas of the community care budget which will not be ring fenced?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, all the new money being transferred to local authorities next year from the social security budget will be ring fenced. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health and her Ministers have considered all the representations that were made to them during the course of the consultation period, and agreed that it was right that the money should be ring fenced.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, can my noble friend arrange for there to be placed in the Library an official translation of the verb "to ring fence"?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, I shall do my very best.

§ Lord Allen of Abbeydale
My Lords, is the Minister satisfied that what is proposed can be achieved under existing powers without the need for fresh legislation, having regard to the discussions we had on the 1990 Bill? As the mover of the amendment about ring fencing which was accepted by this House, is she aware that for once the Government have given great pleasure by at last seeing the light even though, as has been explained, not with complete clarity?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, it is with great pleasure that I give the noble Lord the assurance that there are sufficient powers for the money to be transferred from the social security budget to local authorities and that it will be ring fenced. Perhaps this is an occasion on which we should rejoice that decisions made in your Lordships' House have been taken on board in another place.

§ Lord Mancroft
My Lords, can my noble friend explain to the House why the decision to ring fence drug and alcohol rehabilitation, in which I have some interest as your Lordships will know, has been completely reversed, a step which is more than likely to lead to those rehabs who are already financially stretched going bust in April 1993? Can she also tell the House why the Government have reversed the decision that the assessments of those admittedly difficult patients should now be made by local authorities as opposed to independent sector assessors when the Government have admitted that all the expertise lies not in the local authorities but in the independent sector?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, the undertakings given by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary when Secretary of State for Health to ring fence specific funds for drug and alcohol services have been more than met by the fact that this total sum of money has now been ring fenced. It will give local authorities the flexibility to decide how much money they wish to spend on those specific services within the ring fenced money.
With regard to assessments, my noble friend will know that the assessments are to be made not only by the social services but also by people working in the 852 health service and by voluntary organisations. It is essential that if the assessments are to be well done, all the agencies need to be brought in.

§ Lord Ashley of Stoke
My Lords, I agree with the noble Baroness that this is an occasion for rejoicing, and the Government should be congratulated on this very important ring fencing. However, in view of the known reluctance of local authorities to accept ring fencing, can the Minister assure the House that the Government will carefully monitor local authorities?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, the noble Lord is right. On the whole local authorities are reluctant to have ring fencing. On this occasion they were unanimous in their support for it. The monitoring will take place through the Audit Commission, which will monitor the accounts of local authorities on an annual basis.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, when my noble friend explains to my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham that ring fencing means giving local authorities money for expenditure only for a specific purpose as opposed to an unhypothecated grant, will she explain how that definition fits with what I understand has happened; namely, the ring fencing of money for the treatment of drug and alcohol abuse being absorbed into the much wider purposes set out in the terms of this Question?

§ Baroness Cumberlege
My Lords, my noble friend will be aware that when the proposal was first made there was great anxiety that services for alcohol and drug abuse would be affected detrimentally because the money would not be spent on those services. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Health has decided that all the new money which is being transferred from the social security budget should be ring fenced, in which case we can ensure that some of that money will be spent on alcohol and drug services.