State Pension Entitlement Age (Hansard, 30 November 1992)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Social Security (Lord Henley)
My Lords, the Government's intention is to announce their proposals some time next year. Over 4,000 responses have been received during the public discussion period and social security Ministers have met representatives of various interested organisations to discuss their submissions.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Is he aware that to my personal knowledge this matter was under discussion in British Government circles 37 years ago? Therefore, is he aware that there does not seem to be very much hurry about it?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I understand that this matter has been under discussion for some years. It has possibly been under discussion ever since the pension age for women was reduced from 65 years of age to 60 during the war. I accept that it is very difficult and that no simple solution will satisfy everyone. That is why my right honourable friend announced a discussion period in June of last year and produced a discussion paper in December of last year. That discussion period continued until June of this year. As I said in my original Answer, we have now received some 4,000 responses and we intend, as I indicated, to announce our proposals in due course.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that many of us in this House and elsewhere cannot see why on earth the EC should be involved in the retirement age for men and women in this country? Is it not a fact that this is a decision which should be made by the British Government, the British Parliament and the British people alone? When it is made, may I have an assurance that it will be made in a way so that men as well as women retire at the age of 60?

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, on the second part of the noble Lord's question, I can give him no reassurance to that effect. As I said quite clearly, no decision has yet been made. As regards the first part of the noble Lord's question, I can give him a categorical assurance 1168 that a decision will be made by the British Parliament, the British Government and the British people. EC law does specifically allow for unequal state pension ages under a derogation under its Directive 79/7.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, is not my noble friend aware that the question directed to him by the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, was based on a misunderstanding? He was confusing the European Convention on Human Rights at the Strasbourg courts with the European Community and the Luxembourg courts.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I suspect that many of the questions coming from the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, are based on a misconception. I will leave it to my noble and learned friend to correct the noble Lord on occasions. As I said, EC law does specifically allow us derogation in this matter.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, since I have been attacked—I do not want to waste the time of the House—but perhaps I may say that my question was based on no misconception at all. I understand far more about the European Community and European affairs than most other people in this place.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, no attack on the noble Lord was intended by me or, I suspect, by my noble and learned friend. I was merely stating, first, what the Government's position is and, secondly, that under EC law there is a derogation which allows unequal state pension ages.

§ Baroness Platt of Writtle
My Lords, has my right honourable friend considered the question of a flexible decade for retirement for both sexes? That might solve many of the problems for both men and women which exist at the moment.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, we shall consider all possible options, including bringing the age down or taking it up or having a flexible period for retirement. Obviously, there are advantages and disadvantages in every single option. I would not like to give any indication as to the way in which the Government are thinking at the moment.

§ Baroness Hollis of Heigham
My Lords, it is clear that the present pension age benefits women, but the structure of pension provision does not. Does the Minister agree that women have interrupted contributions because they have children, they take up part-time work and very often they earn too little to pay national insurance contributions, so that most poor pensioners are women and most women pensioner households are poor? Therefore, I ask the Minister not to isolate the issue of the pension age from the wider question of financial security in old age for men and women alike.

§ Lord Henley
My Lords, I would never want to exclude anything from our period of discussion. Certainly, we take all factors into account. I would not necessarily accept the assertions of the noble Baroness. I would stress that we have increased 1169 provision for the poorer pensioners in our extra premiums in income support quite dramatically over the past few years.