Minicab Drivers: Sex Discrimination (Hansard, 18 November 1992)

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, the employer sought to place an advertisement for minicab drivers with the Richmond jobcentre. It emerged that the employer was prepared to consider women only. It is unlawful discrimination, contrary to Section 6 of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, to discriminate against a man in arrangements made for the purpose of determining who should be offered employment. Jobcentre staff therefore acted correctly.

§ Lord Blyth
My Lords, I thank the noble Viscount for that reply. But does he accept that the company involved, which I did not name in my Question, runs a two-tier firm, one section of which employs male drivers and the other section of which attempts to provide a minicab service operated with women drivers? Therefore it employs both sexes. Does he not agree that there is great demand among women for cabs driven by women because many women are afraid of minicab drivers, and every week one sees reports of rapes taking place in minicabs? Can the Minister help in this matter? Can the Government not make an exception in this case, which seems to be genuine?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, the Government appreciate the concerns expressed but consider that a change in the sex discrimination legislation would not be justified. The requirement is for reliable drivers of either sex.

§ Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, is the Minister not aware that there have been a number of horrific attacks on women passengers by bogus taxi drivers? Is there not a case for more regulation in the area of minicab operations? Is there not a case also for looking at exceptions here because I understand that the EOC is sympathetic?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, the Government deplore attacks on women and consider safety a top priority. However, we question the extent to which changing the sex discrimination law to permit employers to employ only women taxi drivers would address the more complex problem of women's safety.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, does the Minister agree that if the law is as he says, then clearly the law is an ass? Should it not now be amended to make the perfectly common sense amendment that women may be allowed to drive minicabs in small firms so long as the firm operates another part of the company to employ males?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, there are problems. The drivers gain or may gain some benefit from the jobs that they undertake. They receive a percentage of each fare charge, set a fee for each trip or passenger or may receive tips from passengers. The firm would contravene Section 6(2) (a) of the Sex Discrimination Act 1975 if it chose a driver for a particular job on the grounds of that driver's sex.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, if Section 6(2) (a) of the Sex Discrimination Act does not make sense in those human terms, does the noble Viscount agree that it ought to be amended? Does he not feel that there ought to be some form of derogation? It is not a question of women drinking in the bar at El Vino's; it is a question of their security, is it not?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, what is at issue here is a recruitment practice which is plainly unlawful. We must avoid creating a false impression about the extent to which women are at risk.

§ Baroness Lockwood
My Lords, was the noble Viscount suggesting that women passengers might give smaller tips than men do? That is certainly not my experience. Is it not a fact that if a firm employs both male and female drivers, that firm is at liberty to deploy its staff so as to ensure the safety and security of women? Furthermore, does he accept that there are exceptions to the Sex Discrimination Act? If the Equal Opportunities Commission is favourable to an exception in this case, does he agree that it would be to the benefit of the community as a whole if the Home Office would consult with the commission about an appropriate amendment?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I draw the noble Baroness's attention to my earlier Answer with regard to Section 6(2) (a) of the Sex Discrimination Act. There are problems that would arise. As regards exceptions to the Act, Section 7 acknowledges that in certain very limited circumstances sex may be a genuine occupational qualification (GOQ) for a job; 618 for instance, where a man or a woman is needed because of physical form, for example, as an actor or a model.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, I am sure that the House has understood the noble Viscount's interpretation of the law. Is not the question now whether he will ask his right honourable friend the responsible Minister to consider whether the law ought to be changed?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I shall draw the comments made on this Question to the attention of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State.

§ Lord Gisborough
My Lords, at the risk of being hit on the head, does the Minister agree that if women want equality, which they now have, they must accept the disadvantages as well as the advantages?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, the Sex Discrimination Act fulfils a very valuable purpose; namely, to promote equality of opportunity between men and women generally.

§ Baroness Turner of Camden
My Lords, if the Minister means it when he says that the Government are concerned for the safety of women, does he not agree that something should be done to protect women more when they use public transport? I am sure that I cannot be the only woman in this House who feels quite uncomfortable when using the tubes after a certain time in the evening. Will he accept that it is very disconcerting to find that there are not any staff around? Could that area not be looked at? Does it not require a change in the law?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, I believe that that is wide of the Question on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Blyth
My Lords, does the Minister accept that, although I do not suggest anything about his sexual preferences, I would sooner be raped by a female minicab driver than a male one?

§ Viscount Goschen
My Lords, if the noble Lord promises not to talk about my sexual preferences, I shall promise not to talk about his.