Trident Missiles: Testing (Hansard, 16 November 1992)

HL Deb 16 November 1992 vol 540 cc446-9 446

§ 2.41 p.m.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney asked Her Majesty's Government:

§ Whether, following Baroness Trumpington's Answer on 26th October [col. WA 93] that "it is not practicable for the UK to test [nuclear weapons] while the US Government is itself unable to do so", Trident missiles will not even be tested to ensure their safety; and, if so, whether the country most threatened by the missiles will be Scotland.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Viscount Cranborne)
My Lords, like the noble Lord and, I suspect, all Members of the House, I am delighted to be able to rely upon the considerable authority of my noble friend whom he quotes in his Question.
It is important to distinguish between the testing programme of our Trident warhead, which has been successfully completed, and the quite separate process of testing the Trident missile. The missile has already been extensively and successfully test-fired in the United States, and will also undergo a comprehensive series of trials, assessments and formal safety approval procedures before entering service with the Royal Navy.

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§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, if the Minister and the Government are so satisfied with the position, why do not they join the United States in declaring a moratorium on nuclear testing?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I must point out to the noble Lord that the present Administration in the United States, like us, feels that the resolution proposed and passed by Congress is unfortunate and misguided. As I have made perfectly clear to noble Lords, and to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, in particular, on previous occasions, the reason it is important that we should continue testing is, above all else, for matters of safety.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, if I may correct the noble Viscount on a point of fact, the United States Administration has since accepted the position of Congress and the President elect equally accepts the idea of a moratorium. The British Government are alone in standing out against it. Is it not about time that they changed their minds?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I do not wish to indulge in your Lordships' House in a pantomime-like, "Yes, it is", "No, it isn't" exchange, but I must emphasise to your Lordships that the US Administration believes, like us, that Congress's legislation for a moratorium and an end to testing in 1996 is misguided.

§ Lord Mackay of Ardbrecknish
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that far from being threatened by these missiles, Scotland—in common with the rest of the free world—feels secure in having them, as she and the rest of the free world did with having the Polaris submarines? Will he further point out to the noble Lord, Lord Jenkins, that even the Labour Party now concedes that the defence of our country in nuclear terms is important? Not only does it back the siting of Trident on the Clyde, but it is rightly campaigning for the reprocessing and refitting of the Trident submarines at Rosyth, also in Scotland.

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, as always, I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for his authoritative interpretations of public opinion in Scotland. I am the first to agree with him that I should be unwise in any way to challenge his diagnosis of what people think north of the Border. In the Ministry of Defence, we have noted the remarkable degree to which the Labour Party is campaigning towards the retention of nuclear refitting at Rosyth. It is a decision which the Ministry of Defence will find difficult to take, but which will certainly be taken within the reasonably near future.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that, whether or not the United States legislation is misguided, it is there? Since we test in the United States, it means that we shall only be able to have three tests up to September 1996 and no tests thereafter. In the light of that, will the Government reconsider their view and cease opposing a comprehensive test ban treaty?

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Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have certainly never denied the desirability of ultimately endorsing a complete test ban treaty. However, it is perfectly clear that the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, should, if I may be so bold as to suggest it, realise that any future testing from now relates not to the safety of the Trident system itself but very much to the safety of future systems and the capabilities of the teams we have in place in this country.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the commitment of the Labour Party is still to a total ban on nuclear testing? In his replies, he seems to assume that there has not been an election in the United States. To what extent are the Government in touch with the next Administration in the United States—which on many issues pursues a different policy—in order to bring our policy a little more up to date?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, will know from his experience and would rightly expect Her Majesty's Government to be in close touch with events in the United States and I can reassure him on that point.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, is it not fair to say that the noble Viscount has now admitted that the Government are in favour of a comprehensive test ban treaty? It is just a question of time. If—and it is an "if"—the new Administration of the United States takes the resolution of Congress at its face value and does not continue testing in the United States and removes our testing facilities, to reiterate the question of the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, and puts a time-frame on it, when will the Government come out in favour of a comprehensive test ban treaty?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I do not think that there is anything revolutionary or new in a declaration from Her Majesty's Government's Ministers that we are in favour of an ultimate test ban treaty. That has been perfectly common ground between us for many years. What we have to realise is that such a treaty has to be capable of standing, of verification, and it has to work. There is a great deal going on in the world today which makes single-minded and easily-taken resolutions of the kind to which the noble Lord referred potentially dangerous. We know of a great many nations in the world, particularly in the third world today, whose reliability on matters of non-proliferation is open to question. I know that the noble Lord himself has referred to them in the past.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that no negotiations towards a comprehensive test ban treaty have taken place during the lifetime of the Bush Administration, but that the new President elect has stated that he is in favour of a comprehensive test ban treaty? If he proposes that negotiations shall be reopened and resumed, will the Government accept that? In other words, is the Government's adhesion to a comprehensive test ban treaty real?

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Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I have to say to the noble Lord that I do not know that I can add very much to the situation which I have once again described this afternoon on behalf of Her Majesty's Government. We have never been against an ultimate test ban treaty. What we have to make sure is that the agreement sticks and will be of some value. I would add that for the moment the noble Lord ought to realise that, from the point of view of safety, for those who have nuclear weapons and use them as a deterrent those weapons are infinitely safer if there is a testing capacity. It is the safety aspect to which I urge the noble Lord to address himself.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, as one who took part in the negotiations for the original three environment test ban treaty in 1963, does my noble friend agree with me that nothing could be more dangerous than a four environment test ban treaty which was incapable of verification or incapable of enforcement?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, I am extremely grateful for my noble and learned friend's intervention. His experience in these matters is certainly much greater than mine. I am happy to give him the assurance which he seeks.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, is it not the case, and will the noble Viscount not admit, that modern technology can detect a nuclear test wherever that occurs in the world, and therefore the problem of enforcement is not really a great one?

Viscount Cranborne
My Lords, there is no doubt that a great deal of technical progress has been made and that it is much easier to detect nuclear tests than it would have been many years ago. Nevertheless we must accept that it is not so much testing and the detection of tests that is the difficulty, it is the acquisition and proliferation of nuclear weapons, particularly among third world countries, which is a danger. From the noble Lord's previous remarks, I know he is fully aware of that position.