Civil Servants: Engineering Degrees (Hansard, 16 November 1992)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Baroness Denton of Wakefield)
My Lords, at least 31 people in the top three grades hold engineering degrees and 14 others have an engineering background.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, I am quite grateful to my noble friend for that Answer. I hope she will go a little further, however. Does she not agree that if we are going to secure the necessary improvements in our balance of payments it is necessary that there should be a wider understanding of both the needs and the potential of industry? Does she also agree that throughout the Civil Service there should be something more than a haphazard acquaintance with the necessary engineering skills?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I am pleased to tell my noble friend that at least a quarter of the secondees now in the Department of Trade and Industry have engineering backgrounds. He will possibly be amazed to discover that there is an engineer in the Treasury. I suggest that, although neither the noble Lord, Lord Benson—to whose words last week our attention has rightly been directed —nor I are engineers, we could not be better advocates for manufacturing industry.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, does the noble Baroness accept that engineering must be at the root of the emergence of manufacturing industry from the 453 recession? Does she therefore agree that it is time that we had another look at the question of apprentices? So far as I am aware, there are no apprentices being trained in engineering, certainly in the north London area. Does the Minister agree that that means that there will be a lack of skills in the one industry where it is required if we are to come out of the recession?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I agree wholeheartedly with the noble Lord that engineering and manufacturing are the key to our future economic growth. That is why I am pleased to report that in the five years to 1990 there was a growth of more than 46 per cent. in engineering degrees from polytechnics.

§ Lord Annan
My Lords, is not one of the reasons why there is not a higher proportion of engineers in the Civil Service that at the age of 23 a young engineering graduate wants to go into industry to make things instead of entering an office to draft regulations to impede people from making things? More seriously, is there not a case for greater flexibility to allow entry into the Civil Service in middle age, such as is the case in France, where there is much greater co-operation between industry, business and the Civil Service?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I am delighted to agree with the noble Lord that making things is what engineering is about. I am pleased to tell him that if one joins the DTI deregulation unit one certainly does not impede; one prevents that from happening. The Civil Service is conscious of the need to ensure that there are opportunities for people with engineering experience at the sharp end to enter the service. That is why I was so pleased to be able to announce the number of secondees and why I am pleased to report that the Office of Science and Technology held a seminar for senior people to look at those issues.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, will my noble friend follow up the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Annan, as to the recruitment of experienced people to the Civil Service in middle age? Is she aware that it is now extremely difficult for any such person to be taken on? Is that not rather a pity?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I agree with my noble friend that it is important that we ease the communication between industry and the Civil Service, and all possible routes have been examined.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, is the noble Baroness satisfied that professionally qualified people—accoun-tants as well as engineers—who are recruited into the Civil Service, difficult though that may be, are given adequate opportunities to rise to the highest levels and to influence policy-making decisions since many policies cannot be properly formulated unless they are devised by professionally qualified people?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, the noble Baroness has raised an important point. That is important if our policies are to be correct. I am delighted to tell her that my records show that we have already had one Permanent Secretary who was an 454 engineer. I am sure that it is perfectly easy for people with the right skills and of the right quality to come through.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that at the time we investigated the matter in the McGaw Committee we found it outstandingly difficult for such people to reach the higher levels and that they were therefore discouraged from staying?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I hope that the present situation will please the noble Baroness more.

§ Lord Swinfen
My Lords, can my noble friend tell the House what proportion of civil servants in the Treasury have experience in industry or commerce and what proportion also have experience in other ministries?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I am afraid that I caught only half of my noble friend's question from behind me. However, the half which I caught suggests that I should take the matter away and write to him with the details.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, I believe that the Minister misunderstood the question of my noble friend Lord Stallard. The Minister talked exclusively of certificated engineers from the polytechnics and universities, whereas the most dreadful shortages will be in the area of craft apprenticeships. For instance, is the Minister aware that only a third of the number of apprentices are now being trained in engineering as fitters, turners and skilled craftsmen compared to 10 years ago, and that those are the areas where the greatest shortages will occur? What are the Government going to do about that?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I am sorry if I misunderstood the noble Lord's question. We are very concerned that there should be facilities for training in engineering at all levels of education. It was for that reason that the technology schools initiative was formulated to encourage youngsters to consider engineering, whatever their talents.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that it has taken me all the time since her original Answer until now to get over the surprise of learning that some engineering influence has at last infiltrated into the Treasury? Perhaps I may conclude by expressing the hope that, whoever he or she is, that person is high enough in the Treasury and has a loud enough voice to be heard effectively.

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I am sure that if he has not my noble friend Lord Peyton will draw my attention to the fact.