Engineering: Finniston Report (Hansard, 2 November 1992)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Trade and Industry (Baroness Denton of Wakefield)
My Lords, much progress has been made but there is still work to do. We shall continue to encourage the profession and industry to secure further improvement in UK engineering.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, does not my noble friend believe that her phrase "there is still work to do" is perhaps the understatement of the century? Does my noble friend recall that Finniston forecast a shortage of engineers by the late 1980s? That would lead to a lack of competitiveness on the part of our industry and that in turn would lead to high levels of long-term unemployment. Does not the Minister think that the central recommendation of the report that the Engineering Council should have some teeth and some edge to it should now be given force?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, the phrase "there is still work to do" is meant to show that we are not complacent. The professions and industry are also involved in this matter. There is much work to 1306 do by the industry as regards its engineers. I question my noble friend's comment on the lack of good engineering. In the third quarter, manufactured exports were nearly three-quarters higher than in 1981.

§ Lord Howie of Troon
My Lords, will the noble Baroness agree with me that the surviving members of the Finniston Committee, of whom I am one and several of whom I met a few weeks ago, do not believe that progress has been in any way remarkable? In fact, we find progress very difficult to discern. Will the Minister answer a question which I have asked her before; namely, can she justify the disparity in funding—and this is important—between the Design Council, which deals with some of the products of engineering, and the Engineering Council, which deals principally with engineers rather than engineering? Does she recall that the Design Council receives public funding to the tune of something like £6 million per year? That is rather more than the Engineering Council has ever received in the eight years of its existence.

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Howie, appreciates that one of the main reasons that no statutory body was set up following the Finniston report was because of the objections of the professions. The Engineering Council, with a Royal Charter, was a solution to that.
I am sure that the noble Lord will be pleased with the work of the Fairclough Initiative, which is trying to weld together the total strength of engineering. Perhaps I may correct the idea that design is restricted purely to product. It is relevant also to process. The Engineering Council is not suffering from a lack of funds.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, what support are the Government giving to the recently proposed unification of the profession to which the noble Baroness just referred in order to strengthen its organisation in this country, so sustaining British engineers who have been leading the world for 200 years?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, my noble friend will understand that we look forward to the results of Sir John Fairclough's deliberations with enormous interest and can only feel that there will be benefit from them. However, I am sure that he and others in this House will appreciate that telling the professional institutions what to do is not a productive process.

The Earl of Halsbury
My Lords, are we not in danger of putting the cart before the horse? Does the noble Baroness agree that a current shortage of engineers means an earlier shortage of engineering students, which in turn means an earlier shortage of encouragement of young people in schools to go into engineering? It is not an easy subject to teach in school, apart from elementary statics and dynamics. We must do something about it now in the hope that something will happen 10 years hence.

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I agree wholeheartedly with the noble Earl. However, the 1307 national curriculum ensures provision of mathematics and science suitable for all pupils regardless of race, gender or ability. One of the most obvious outcomes of that and previous work is that there are now double the number of women studying engineering.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, following the Minister's response to an earlier question when she said that the Government are not complacent, can she say how many engineering apprentices are at present under training as compared with 1980?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, no, I am afraid I cannot. I shall certainly obtain the figure. Perhaps I can point out that there are increasing numbers of engineering undergraduates and that will reflect in the level of engineering.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that it is a long-standing problem referred to in the Donovan Report? Further to the question of the noble Earl, Lord Halsbury, ought not some constructive steps be taken after the warning given long ago in the Donovan Report?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I hope that we are not questioning that we have some of the best engineers in the world and that work is being done. I must refer to my previous answer that the process in education is being dealt with.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, does the noble Baroness recall the key recommendations of the Finniston report which were that regeneration of the United Kingdom manufacturing competitiveness must be given overriding priority—I repeat, overriding priority—in national policies; that government employers and trade unions must work together within a major national programme for training and re-training of employees of all ages; and that an enhanced role for the National Economic Development Council to bring together relevant official bodies is essential? In the light of what has happened, does the noble Baroness still accept those objectives?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I accept wholeheartedly the key role that manufacturing plays in the UK economy. Much has already been achieved when we look at the fact that productivity grew faster in this country than in any other major industrial country in the 1980s.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, I am sorry to press the matter, but does the noble Baroness agree with the recommendation of the Finniston report, published in 1980, that government employers and trade unions must work together? Secondly, does she agree with the idea of an enhanced role for the National Economic Development Council, which the Government have just abolished?

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, it is important to provide successful manufacturing. There is every indication that that is happening.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, will my noble friend try to persuade her colleagues that if they now allow a note of urgency to creep into the matter, they will not be blamed for being over-hasty? I realise it is a forlorn prayer but it would be nice if someone could plant a vestige of engineering influence in the Treasury.

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I am pleased to assure my noble friend that I played my part by being six years on the Engineering Council. The sense of urgency in the manufacturing field is shared by government, industry and the professions.

§ Lord Howie of Troon
My Lords, does the Minister realise that the Fairclough proposals point in the direction of the revival of something like the Council of Engineering Institutions? From her period with the Engineering Council, does she recall that it was the failure of the Council of Engineering Institutions which led to the setting up of the Finniston Committee? It seems that we are rapidly heading back to square one.

§ Baroness Denton of Wakefield
My Lords, I fear that very few things are before my time, but that was.