Smoking on Trains: BR Policy (Hansard, 19 May 1992)

Viscount Astor
My Lords, it is for the British Railways Board to determine whether smoking should he permitted on trains. In doing so it takes due account of its passengers' wishes. There is a ban on Network SouthEast's inner suburban services. I understand that British Rail has no plans to extend that ban.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that although I am not a smoker I ask the Question because of my need to protect minorities? Is he aware that British Rail is progressively making smoking more difficult for the 20 per cent. minority who wish to smoke on trains? Is that desirable at a time when British Rail wants to please the clients in order to attract people to return to the railways as more money is invested in them and as our roads become more crowded?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, in response to market demand and to save on the cost of train cleaning, smoking has been banned on inner suburban routes in Network SouthEast. Market research suggests that 77 per cent. of passengers are in favour of the ban. BR believes that the ban may have attracted more customers to its services.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, is not the banning of smoking on trains, a unilateral imposition, a form of dictatorship? Bans are imposed without consulting the smokers concerned, about one-third of the travelling public. Does the Minister agree that British Rail should be legally bound to make provision for smokers? After all, smokers have rights too; the right to enjoy smoking tobacco whenever they wish.

Viscount Astor
My Lords, smoking is allowed on all InterCity services. It is banned only on short journeys.

§ Lord Harris of High Cross
My Lords, speaking as a member of the noble Lord's endangered minority, does not the Minister's answer totally contradict the Citizen's Charter, which refers to all public services? Those services are required to make better provision 542 for all users and "wherever practicable" they should provide for choice. In particular, it is stated that BR will seek to make its services to the public friendlier and more personal. In the section dealing with prisons it is stated that, all citizens are entitled to consideration, including those who offend against the law. Does the Minister acknowledge that, although the rights of prisoners are allowed for in the charter, British Rail's approach, which is in violation of the charter, regards smokers as non-citizens?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, British Rail must respond to its market and to its users; its philosophy must be market-driven. It is for British Rail to decide whether to impose bans on particular services. Obviously it must take into consideration all its users. It is for British Rail to decide whether it is acting in line with the Citizen's Charter.

§ Baroness Robson of Kiddington
My Lords, the Minister replied that one of the reasons for banning smoking was that trains would be less dirty. Does he agree that in addition to cigarette ends on the floor there are sweet papers and so forth? Why does British Rail not place a receptacle in every compartment?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a good suggestion. I understand that in non-smoking carriages less litter is dropped because people do not see cigarette butts on the floor and are less inclined to drop sweet papers and so forth.

§ Lord Kinnaird
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that when certain people enjoy certain pleasures there is always a body of other people wishing to stop them doing so? Is that not somewhat dog in the manger and what will British Rail's position be when a train breaks down?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, I know that my noble friend indulges in many pleasures including, probably, smoking on trains. I hope that he will be able to continue to indulge in most of those pleasures. The breakdown of a train is a different question but as I know that my noble friend travels to Scotland he will not be affected because one can smoke on InterCity services.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is not British Rail proposing that there shall be no smoking on journeys lasting less than 90 minutes? Is that not an absurd restriction to place on the travelling public who smoke? Should not British Rail be encouraging people to use the railways instead of their cars in the interests of the prevention of pollution rather than discouraging them, particularly in central London, where the pollution is very bad indeed?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, is right. It is extremely important for British Rail to encourage people to use its services. It is also important that it should take into account the views of its passengers. It is not possible to keep all its passengers happy all the time, for many reasons. The decision on whether to ban smoking on suburban 543 journeys is not based on time but on distance. As noble Lords will be aware, sometimes time and distance on British Rail can be two different things.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Viscount not aware—

§ Lord Marsh
My Lords—

Noble Lords
Order, order.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
Over the past 160 years, British Rail—

Noble Lords
Order, order.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
—has been able to satisfy its customers by having smoking and non-smoking carriages on all its rail services?

§ Lord Marsh
My Lords, perhaps this is more a question which is properly addressed to the Leader of the House but if, as the Minister says—and I suspect he may well be right—he has no responsibility in this matter, is it his intention to answer questions generally on behalf of British Rail? Should this Question be on the Order Paper? I am slightly puzzled.

Viscount Astor
My Lords, the noble Lord has great experience as regards British Rail. It is my job to try to answer the Question on the Order Paper.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that whether or not British Rail intends to ban smoking on Network SouthEast journeys of less than 90 minutes' duration, it is already surreptitiously doing so by the simple means of not providing enough smoking compartments?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, British Rail monitors the level of vacant seats in both smoking and non-smoking compartments in order to determine the relative demand.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, is the Minister aware that this terrible dictatorship has been extended to theatres, where there are prohibitions or partial prohibitions, to London buses, and, indeed, elsewhere? Is the Minister further aware that the noble Lord, Lord Harris, has given a remarkable new insight into the purpose of the Citizen's Charter? Indeed, that seems to be its only purpose. However, will the Minister enter into discussions with British Rail to see that the number of non-smoking compartments is, at the very least, increased in proportion to those where smoking is permitted?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, I shall certainly draw to the attention of British Rail the questions which have been asked in your Lordships' House.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that all the European countries allow designated carriages for smoking? Will he perhaps draw to the attention of British Rail that when it is running trains through the Channel Tunnel, there should be a half-way mark at which point smokers may light up?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, as always, my noble friend offers an interesting view regarding British Rail. I shall bring the noble Lord's remarks to the notice of Sir Bob Reid, the chairman of British Rail.