Piracy (Hansard, 13 May 1992)

The Minister of State, Department of Transport (The Earl of Caithness)
Yes, my Lords.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that very good reply. Are the Government giving attention to the lawlessness and robbery occurring in the areas of South East Asia and the Far East? With all the technology which is now available, does he agree that it is time to take steps to forestall and counter raids on peaceful shipping engaged in innocent passage?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we are certainly most concerned at the increase in attacks, both in international waters, where it is piracy, and in territorial waters, where it is armed robbery. Where it is in territorial waters, we look to the coastal states to take appropriate action. In international waters, we are working with other countries within the IMO to see how best to tackle the issue. We shall be issuing a further notice soon to our own fleet.

§ Lord Murray of Epping Forest
My Lords, does the noble Earl accept that entirely the wrong solution to this appalling problem would be either to put armed guards on ships or to seek to arm merchant seafarers, as suggested in some quarters? Does he agree that any attempt to impose on the masters of ships an obligation to take decisions to resist attacks by force would be totally and utterly wrong?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I agree with much of what the noble Lord said. We are considering the whole issue of how best to respond to attacks.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the only answer is an international naval force set up under the auspices of the United Nations? Can he say whether any positive step has been taken by Her Majesty's Government towards that end?

The Earl of Caithness
No, my Lords, no steps have been taken towards that end. Under current legislation the navy can only go to the defence of other 342 shipping against piracy in international waters. The problem is quite different and presents many more difficulties when one comes to territorial waters.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, will the Minister be more specific? What are the Government doing in terms of co-operation with other countries? Is the Minister aware that the scale of the problem is becoming quite alarming? I am not sure whether or not it is international waters but in the area around Singapore whereas there were three such incidents in 1989 there were over 100 last year. Does he agree that there is therefore a clear obligation on all seafaring countries at the very least to make sure that there is some degree of international co-ordination and undertake as a matter of urgency an analysis of the information relating to those issues and the dissemination of information about them? With great respect, I did not sense any measure of urgency in what the Minister said.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, there is a sense of urgency and a very great one. That is why discussions are taking place in the IMO, which is the appropriate place for them. Perhaps the noble Lord is confused between piracy and armed robbery in territorial waters. He will probably find that the waters around Singapore belong to the coastal state.

§ Lord Greenway
My Lords, does the noble Earl accept that in the Singapore area most of the incidents occur within Indonesian waters? Bearing in mind that the presence of a warship is the best deterrent to piracy, can Her Majesty's Government get together with the other maritime nations and the local states and somehow allow transiting warships from those nations to carry out some form of anti-piracy activity?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, that is something that we would consider. Again, one runs into the problem of territorial waters and the coastal states, which have the primary duty to look after waters within 12 miles of their coast. As the noble Lord will know, shipowners got together in Kuala Lumpur to form a co-operation agreement to tackle a problem in the area about which the noble Lord is concerned.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is the Minister aware that only a few years ago I met some people who had been the victims of a pirates' raid in the very waters about which we speak? One person was murdered and other people mutilated on a small boat. At the time the Australian Government made the strongest possible protestations to the countries involved because of the appalling acts that took place on that small ship. Is the Minister also aware that the countries to which the Australians pleaded gave the fullest undertaking to do their best to deal with the situation? According to the figures given by my noble friend on our Front Bench, they have not been successful. Will they not have to do much more than at present?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we continually talk to the governments of the states involved. The problem relates not only to South East Asia. It is also 343 a problem in both West Africa and South America. So far as I can tell there are not too many pirates left in Penzance.
However, the point that the noble Lord raises about reporting incidents is entirely relevant. Many of the incidents that take place are not reported. If people would report more incidents, one could take better action.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, will the Minister give an undertaking that with regard to our own shipping interests, he will consult with the officers' union and the NUS. They have a substantial body of knowledge and information that they could impart, and, I believe, advice too. Does the Minister agree that all shipping interests in this country should be consulted by the Government in great detail about this appalling problem?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I shall not give the noble Lord that assurance because we are already doing so.