Arbroath Smokies: EC Regulations (Hansard, 12 May 1992)

§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Fraser of Carmyllie)
My Lords, Directive 91/493 EEC lays down health conditions for the production and placing on the market of fishery products, including the smoking of fish. The conditions are of a general nature and are no more than are necessary to ensure that persons engaged in the smoking of fish offer for sale wholesome products prepared in hygienic conditions. I stress that those conditions are quite compatible with the traditional method of production.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble and learned friend for his reply. Is he aware that those requirements have involved crippling expenditure for the producers, although no ill effects have been observed from the traditional methods used for many years? Will the Government, having defended the British sausage, thanks to my noble friend Lady Trumpington, and defended Scottish mince, ensure that the future of the smoky will not be threatened?

§ Lord Fraser of Carmyllie
My Lords, I live five miles outside Arbroath and cannot be unaware of the significance attached to the continuation of the traditional method of production of smokies. I stress to my noble friend that while there may be some expenditure involved, a grant fund of some £100,000 will be made available by Angus District Council and Scottish Enterprise Tayside for the purpose of making sure that the requirements of the regulations can be met. They are not intended to alter the traditional method of production of that great delicacy from Scotland but to ensure that hygienic conditions are properly maintained.

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords, living as I do only a little further away from Arbroath than does my noble and learned friend, may I ask the Government to point out to the Brussels bureaucrats that smokies are smoked in pairs tied together with string and that the string hangs on the bar over the fire? It makes not the smallest difference whether the bar is made of wood or of metal, as the European Commission wishes. Therefore this is one of the forms of 230 interference in local traditional food by the European Community which brings the Community into the greatest disrepute. Will my noble and learned friend point that out to Brussels?

§ Lord Fraser of Carmyllie
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for making so clear that she too knows exactly how smokies are prepared in Arbroath. The point is that neither we nor Brussels in any sense seek to alter the traditional method by which those fish are smoked. What is of concern is the way in which they are hung when being smoked. It is felt that they should be on poles or stays that are corrosion resistant and easy to clean and disinfect. Whether wooden or steel poles (as the environmental health department believes is correct) are used is not a matter that would result in any change to that method. We and Brussels are anxious to ensure that they should be hygienically produced. I hope that the delicacy will continue.

§ Lord Marsh
My Lords, would the Government be prepared to consider the possibility that the increasing flood of regulations of this type is possibly becoming increasingly silly?

§ Lord Fraser of Carmyllie
My Lords, obviously the short answer would be the attractive one to give. I am anxious to stress that we are dealing with the hygienic circumstances in which fish are smoked. It is not a directive specifically aimed at the delicacy of the Arbroath smoky. As the noble Baroness indicated, contact of the fish with the poles on which they are smoked is, if at all, minimal. The health department believes that stainless steel poles are preferable but has not ruled out wooden ones. I hope that the noble Lord will accept that while there may be changes the directive is not intended to attack that traditional industry.

§ Lord John-Mackie
My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord aware that the biggest problem about smokies is that far too few people know the correct way to cook them?

§ Lord Fraser of Carmyllie
My Lords, there are many ways of preparing smokies. Perhaps I may go into my commercial plug. An Arbroath smoky is an Arbroath smoky, whereas there are abominations which disguise themselves as kippers. I like the kipper as much as the next man, but it is never quite in all the circumstances as genuine as the smoky.

§ Lord Hooson
My Lords, as a general principle should not the Commission confine itself to laying down general requirements of health and leave it to national governments to settle the minutiae? Is not the way in which some of these regulations are interpreted strictly by our health officers causing extreme problems in some small industries?

§ Lord Fraser of Carmyllie
My Lords, this directive lays down general health conditions for the production and placing on the market of fishery products. As the noble Lord appreciates, the enforcement of those regulations will be for those in 231 local government who have the responsibility of ensuring that proper, hygienic standards are maintained.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, does my noble and learned friend agree that it is an ideal field in which the principle of subsidiarity should be strictly applied?

§ Lord Fraser of Carmyllie
My Lords, that is a big word in Arbroath! However, I understand entirely the point that my noble and learned friend makes. Provided this and comparable directives lay down general health conditions ensuring that there are hygienic standards maintained throughout the Community, that would appear to me to be appropriate. However, I accept entirely the point that my noble and learned friend makes: that undue interference in the local circumstances of production of such great delicacies is to be resisted.

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord aware that by far the best kippers are produced at Craster in Northumberland? Will he give an assurance that these foolish regulations will not destroy that small but useful industry especially as the Government's policy has almost destroyed the inshore fishing industry in Northumberland?

§ Lord Fraser of Carmyllie
My Lords, it is a big enough problem to deal with the smoky without venturing into the dangerous waters of kippers.
Directive 91/493 lays down general health conditions. We do not address ourselves to more particular matters such as the way that kippers might be smoked. On that issue the noble Lord and myself might find ourselves in great agreement.

§ Lord Carmichael of Kelvingrove
My Lords, until this directive was published, has the Minister had any representations made through his department from the health authorities as to the carcinogenic aspects of the smoking of kippers in Arbroath? As I understand it, if aluminium poles are used and the huts tiled and closed, men will need to go in with breathing apparatus. Will not the mystique of the Arbroath kipper be lost?

§ Lord Fraser of Carmyllie
My Lords, first there is a misunderstanding in this specialised field. There is no suggestion that aluminium poles should be used. The options are the continuation of the use of traditional wooden poles or stainless steel poles. If wooden poles can be used hygienically there is absolutely no reason why they should not continue to be used.

§ Lord Marlesford
My Lords, does my noble and learned friend agree that in order to supplement the principle of subsidiarity—which is intended to prevent Brussels from meddling in matters that can be dealt with by national governments—we should seek to enshrine in some treaty a new principle of proportionality under which the cost of any directive from Brussels is judged against the benefit that it brings?

§ Lord Fraser of Carmyllie
My Lords, perhaps I may put on my hat as a former law officer. I believe that the 232 principle of proportionality is well enough understood within the European Community. What should be understood about the directive is that it lays down general health conditions for the production and placing on the market of fishery products, including the smoking of fish. That directive would apply from Greece to the north of Scotland.

§ Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, is the noble and learned Lord aware that these regulations are not yet available in the Printed Paper Office and that regulations emanating from Berlaimont often take a number of weeks to reach the Printed Paper Office? Can anything be done about that?

§ Lord Fraser of Carmyllie
My Lords, I cannot immediately answer the noble Lady. However, I shall look into the matter to ensure that such directives are made available as soon as possible.