Rabies: Controls (Hansard, 12 March 1992)

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, the future of controls on the movement of animals susceptible to rabies is currently under discussion within the Community. It would be premature to discuss negotiating tactics when no formal proposal has been made, but the Government will not support any measure which increases the risk that rabies might be introduced into this country.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer. At first I thought that there was a certain amount of equivocation, but I am heartened by the last part of his reply. Does he agree that, despite the occasional inconvenience caused to a minority of pet owners, the present arrangements for the control of rabies have served the country well over the years and have spared the people of this country a certain amount of suffering? Does he also agree that it is for the British people, and the British people alone, to decide, through their representatives at Westminster, whether they are prepared to incur greater risks to their health and safety for the sake of some idealistic concept of easier movement across EC frontiers?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, our objective is to keep out rabies, not because of a fear of people being bitten, which is bad enough in itself, but because of the difficulty and enormous cost of dealing with rabies if it ever became established in our wildlife. If that were to happen, anyone exposed to a rabies susceptible animal would have to be treated at great expense and great inconvenience. We must recognise that we are a member of the Community. Much discussion is taking place, and we are of course prepared to look at any system of controlling rabies, but our policy is to keep out rabies.

§ Lord Gallacher
My Lords, is the Minister aware that we strongly support the Government's position on this issue? Apart from the risk element, the administrative aspect of the matter is one that gives great cause for concern. In the event of vaccine replacing quarantine, are supplies of the vaccine available freely in this country, or must they be obtained from other member states?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, on present information, it is unlikely that we shall be relying exclusively on vaccine, but if vaccine were to become the norm it would be freely available.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, will my noble friend say something about the steps being taken to prevent the introduction of rabies-infected animals through the Channel Tunnel when it opens?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, Eurotunnel has implemented measures, agreed with the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, to prevent the entry of rabies-susceptible animals while the tunnel is being built. Those measures include fencing, staged security zones, visual observation of openings in fencing and a system to ensure that any animal which is seen in the tunnel is reported. Ministry staff visit the construction site regularly to ensure that standards are maintained. There are full provisions in respect of rabies once the Channel Tunnel has been built and is in operation.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the Minister aware that many of us were encouraged to hear him say that the Government will not support any measures which would increase the risk of rabies in this country, but will that decision be taken by majority vote or do the British Government hold a veto on this matter?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I am not prepared to talk about using a veto. It would not be wise to talk in those terms at present. Such action would tend to lead to a member state's views being ignored in negotiation. We shall be arguing for the continued protection of our rabies-free status.

§ Baroness Elles
My Lords, will my noble friend tell the House about the strict measures that are being taken against rabies in other member states of the Community? How many people within the European Community have been bitten by an animal with rabies over the past 15 years?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, most European countries follow the WHO recommendations. There are many statistics, but it is generally assumed that in Europe the risk of a person getting rabies is negligible.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, does the Government's robust attitude to rabies extend also to the various diseases suffered by domestic animals, such as cattle, on the Continent, which, if introduced here, could greatly damage our system?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I cannot today answer questions about diseases other than rabies.

§ Lord Mancroft
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that at the moment vaccination methods against a dog contracting rabies are not completely reliable? Does he also agree that as, uniquely in Europe, we have urban foxes in this country, a vaccination programme for wildlife would be ineffective, especially in view of the mass release of urban foxes into the 1431 countryside over the past few months, which, I am informed, is promoted and encouraged by animal welfare groups, including the RSPCA?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I understand that the problem of urban foxes is not unique to this country. However, my noble friend is right to say that the densities are greater. We do not believe that we can rely entirely upon vaccination. It is just one measure. I have heard the allegations that urban foxes have been caught and released. We believe that that is deplorable and irresponsible, and probably rather cruel to the fox. Having said that, I can understand that people in a town would possibly want to remove a fox from their back yard. In general of course such foxes are well adapted to their own environment and are unlikely to fair well if they are removed to the countryside.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, will the Minister clarify his answer to my noble friend Lord Stoddart of Swindon? Will he say—I do not desire to give any offence to those with whom he is in negotiation—whether this matter, when it arises, will be subject to the veto process? When the decision is made—I am not prejudging the outcome one way or the other—will it be subject to the veto or will it be taken under the majority rule? Will the Minister bear in mind that the standard of enforcement of Community law in some countries tends occasionally to be patchy and that there is always the possibility of forged vaccination certificates?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, I have already explained that I am not prepared to talk about the use of a veto at this stage for the reasons I gave. I understand that compliance throughout the Community is variable.

§ Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, which animals in countries which suffer from rabies are the most likely to contract the disease and pass it on?

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, all warm-blooded mammals can catch rabies and pass it on, but the ones most likely to do so are those in the habit of biting. They are more likely to be prone to what is called "furious" rabies as opposed to "dumb" rabies. Therefore, the risk of horses, cattle or sheep passing on rabies is remote.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the question of whether or not the vote will be unanimous is important? None of the other countries is an island as we are, and as a consequence their outlook is bound to be different. Therefore, unanimity is important if we are to preserve the protection that the moat has given us until now.

§ Lord Cavendish of Furness
My Lords, of course I recognise the importance of the matter. The Republic of Ireland is part of an island and it supports our view. I shall not speak about how we are to negotiate on the matter. We shall keep an open mind on new science 1432 from which we may benefit in Europe. Meanwhile, we shall be interested to hear the ideas that the European Community brings forward.