Road Transport: Environmental Damage (Hansard, 9 March 1992)

§ The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, it has long been the Government's policy that vehicle operators should at least cover their road track costs through taxation. We have supported European Commission proposals to have similar principles apply throughout the Community.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. He will be aware that the Commission has recently produced a Green Paper on the effects of transport on the environment. Are we to understand from what he has said that he agrees with the main thrust of the paper that, in view of the estimated growth of around 42 per cent. in road haulage over the next 20 years, road haulage should bear not only the costs of the damage done to the environment but also the costs of damage done to the infrastructure? Does he agree with that principle?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the noble Lord referred to the Commission's recent Green Paper. We are already committed to integrating environmental concerns into transport policy, so we can accept the broad thrust of the Commission's proposed strategy of sustainable mobility. But we would need to study the paper and some of its proposals very carefully. So far as concerns costs, as I indicated in my original Answer, we in this country already expect heavy goods vehicles to more than cover their costs environmentally. At the moment I believe that the sum paid is around 25 per cent.

§ Lord Mowbray and Stourton
My Lords, as the bulk of goods in Great Britain are carried by the road transport system, if the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, was carried to its logical conclusion might not the consumer rather than the road haulage companies end up paying for environmental damage?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as I said earlier, we make the road haulage industry pay a sum for the environmental damage caused. My noble friend has a good point. At the end of the day it is not the road haulage industry which pays; it is the consumer in general.

§ Baroness Nicol
My Lords, can the Minister say what the value is currently attached to sites of special scientific interest when new roads are planned? Is it not the case that in the past the Department of Transport has often chosen locations where sites of special scientific interest exist because such sites have a low commercial value? Has there been any change in this regard?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, some environmental costs are already included in our road track cost calculations. The figure for expenditure on roads used in the calculations includes, for example, the costs of measures taken to alleviate environmental problems such as noise and includes measures such as the implementation of road traffic and traffic management schemes which separate traffic from people. Designing roads in such a way as to fit them into the surrounding environment, which is I think the point behind the noble Baroness's question, is also a part of road costs.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, as road transport and for that matter all types of mechanical transport are to some extent a reflection of economic activity, is it not important that the value of this activity should not be deprecated? Otherwise we shall be in a pretty poor way economically.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
Of course, my Lords. As said in answer to my noble friend Lord Mowbray, one has to bear in mind that any measures one takes have a cost attached to them. If that cost then goes through to the costs for industry and the consumer, there is that impact to be taken into account.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, can the noble Lord tell the House whether the Government have any policy for reducing the estimated increase in road transport over the next 10 to 20 years? If not, how can they square that with their promised target of reducing carbon dioxide emissions by the year 2005?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, we have signed up to a target for the reduction of CO₂ emissions. That can be achieved in a number of ways, principally perhaps through increasing the efficiency of road transport vehicles. We are active in that pursuit.

§ Lord Marlesford
My Lords, will my noble friend reconsider even at this late hour the Government's decision to spend £1 billion adding a further lane to the M.25? Anyone who knows Los Angeles will realise that the addition of an extra lane will reduce congestion by only a small amount. The costs are enormous and the impact on the environment, especially in the southern part of London, will be huge.

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, that is rather wide of this Question. I believe that an increase in the capacity of the M.25 will further reduce the amount of traffic that comes through London.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the Minister aware that it will come as a considerable surprise to many people that heavy goods vehicles cover the track costs, let alone part of the 1163 environmental costs? Can he elaborate on that? Does he not agree that the only way to avoid increasing damage to the environment is to ensure that heavy goods are transported not by road but wherever possible by rail?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, the noble Lord put his finger on the point in the last part of his question when he used the words "wherever possible". Obviously we would like to see as much traffic transferred to rail as is possible, but it is a fruitless argument to claim that the majority of traffic can transfer very easily from road to rail. Most road journeys for heavy goods vehicles are below 50 miles and are not readily transferable. There are two different markets.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, can the Minister say what part of the law of our island applies whereby, if someone commits a criminal act or breaks the law, he can automatically pass on the costs of doing so to the consumer? In other words, in what part of the legal system does that provision exist?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I am not sure where the noble Lord thinks that that can be done. I have not suggested that anyone could break the law and pass the costs on to the consumer.

§ Lord Clinton-Davis
My Lords, if the Government's environmental claims are to be taken seriously, do not they think it important to eliminate, or at least to mitigate, the distortion of competition which currently prevails between rail and road in that the railways have to bear the full costs of their infrastructural damage whereas the road hauliers certainly do not?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, that is just not true. Rail costs are calculated in the way that they are calculated. Road costs are considerably More; indeed, as I said, 25 per cent. in the case of road haulage and probably three times as much in the case of cars.