Ministerial Salary Levels (Hansard, 29 June 1992)

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, none.

§ Lord McCarthy
My Lords, in the light of the Minister's Answer, for which I thank him—

Noble Lords
Reading!

§ Lord McCarthy
My Lords, it is necessary to read because it is in the Citizen's Charter, and I want to ask the Minister about it. The Citizen's Charter advocates performance-related pay. I want to know why performance-related pay does not apply to Ministers. It states: The ways in which people are paid can have a powerful effect on improving performance". That must be the case with Ministers. They should not be so pessimistic. It continues: Pay systems in the public sector need to make a regular and direct link between a person's contribution to the standards of service provided and his or her reward". It goes on to talk about those principles being applied to doctors, general managers in the NHS, school heads, classroom teachers and civil servants. All those have been covered already. Why should not the principle of performance-related pay apply to Ministers?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we encourage performance-related pay whenever the circumstances are suitable. The noble Lord might be aware that Ministers form one of the few groups with no security of employment and they can therefore spend a great deal of time with their families at very short notice.

§ Lord Boyd-Carpenter
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that adoption of the suggestion made by the noble Lord, Lord McCarthy, would, in view of the high standard of performance achieved by the whole of the present Government, involve a massive increase in public expenditure?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I can assure my noble friend that many sitting on this Bench would welcome that increase in public expenditure, but it might not be appropriate in the present financial situation.

§ Lord Wyatt of Weeford
My Lords, if any committee is needed to evaluate the individual worth of Ministers the noble Lords, Lord McCarthy and Lord Hatch of Lusby, should be appointed to sit on it.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I think, on reflection, that a committee is not needed.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that there are others in the community whose salaries are much larger than those paid to Ministers and whose careers are strangely uncoloured by success but who nevertheless receive rewards which do not reflect that fact?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend can think of one or two, but in this Question we are talking about Ministers.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, if the Government were ever to adopt this interesting proposal would they ensure that the highest paid Ministers are those who produce the least legislation and the fewest orders? Am I not right in thinking that upon that criterion the Minister who should have reached the highest level of payment in recent years is the erstwhile Mr. Peter Walker, who was a satisfactory Minister for many years and who introduced no legislation?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, as I said in my original Answer, there are no plans.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, will the Minister accept that I agree partly with the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter? I assumed that the Question was directed entirely to Ministers in the other place. We are all agreed that Ministers in your Lordships' House perform outstandingly and are grotesquely underpaid, as are the principal Opposition spokesmen. A genuine question has been asked. It is one which applies much more broadly as to what one means by individual performance. Is not the problem that in many organisations it is not individual performance but group performance which matters? For the Government to be pressing performance-related indicators to the level of the individual is a mistake. That is the nature of the problem which in a sense was alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, because if one were trying to judge this matter one would judge the Government as a whole rather than individual Ministers.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, our performance as a group is assessed. It was assessed at the general election, which is why we are sitting on this side of the House and the noble Lord is sitting on the other.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I was about to suggest that the principle might apply to Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition? However, after listening to my noble friend I am inclined to doubt it.

§ Lord McCarthy
My Lords, I must explain matters to the Minister and ask him another question. He must understand that all the answers he has given as to why it would be ridiculous, foolish and fatuous to apply performance-related pay to the Government have been argued with equal force in relation to it being applied to civil servants and National Health Service chief executives. Everyone believes that it should be applied to everyone but them. The Government must be consistent. Either they accept that there are large numbers of chief executives and 592 other senior officials for whom performance-related pay is ridiculous and take it away, or they should apply it to themselves.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I cannot follow the noble Lord's argument. In order for an effective performance-related pay system f o be put into place clear objectives, a robust performance appraisal and a performance management system are needed, for the very reasons I have given. In answer to the noble Lord's first supplementary question, there is a wide difference.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, is the Minister implying that Ministers have no targets or criteria for performance by which they are judged?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we have targets and our performance was vindicated at the general election.