§ 3 p.m
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, this morning I submitted a Private Notice Question to the Leader of the House to ask Her Majesty's Government what action they are taking to mobilise international pressures to halt the massacre of black Africans in South Africa and to promote the search for a genuine non-racial democratic constitution.
According to The Companion to the Standing Orders, the question is whether this matter is of sufficient urgency to justify an immediate reply. That matter rests in the first place with the Leader of the House but ultimately on the general sense of the House. I suggest that it is urgent and I appeal to the House to support me against the preliminary decision of the Leader of the House.
341 The case on urgency is quickly stated. First, there has been in the township of Boipatong outside Johannesburg a massacre of over 100 black Africans in the past few days—and I understand that the killing is still continuing. The police and the government forces are seen by independent witnesses to have been involved.
Secondly, the British Government, along with other governments, lifted sanctions on South Africa, thus tacitly approving the policies of President de Klerk. This matter therefore has an international dimension and I should have thought that Her Majesty's Government would have liked the opportunity both to express their condolences to the relatives of those who have been killed and to have a short discussion about how international action can be brought to bear to defuse the tension and to bring the parties back into negotiations.
Thirdly—again this relates to the question of urgency because all these things need to be done now —it is urgent today for Her Majesty's Government to state their concern about this situation because the National Executive of the African National Congress is meeting tomorrow and negotiations between the ANC and the Government in South Africa have been broken off. If the leadership of Nelson Mandela and the modern-thinking members of the ANC is to be preserved, it is essential that we show our sympathy with their situation today, that we help them to control their wilder elements—which exist also in the white community —and that we bring the two sides back together again in the negotiations.
I submit to the House that on those grounds of urgency this Question should be allowed in the House this afternoon.
§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Wakeham)My Lords, first, I should like to thank the noble Lord for giving me notice that he intended to raise this matter. I am sure that I speak for the whole House when I say that we are always saddened by loss of life in these circumstances whether in South Africa or anywhere else in the world. However, it seems to me that the first thing I have to do is to make a preliminary decision as to whether the Question is of sufficient urgency to justify an immediate reply. The matter does not fulfil the criteria usually adopted in determining whether to accept a Private Notice Question. Generally speaking, it would have to be a matter that could not be considered on a later occasion. That is clearly not the case with the present Private Notice Question, which addresses the action which the international community may bring to bear in resolving the problems in South Africa. This, by definition, is part of a lengthy and ongoing process. The noble Lord could table a Starred Question on this subject if he so wished.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, is there any means by which the opinion of the House can be tested? Could the matter be put to the vote here and now, for example, if we so decided?
§ Lord WakehamMy Lords, in determining these things I seek to understand the general feeling in the House. My predecessors have had discussions with the 342 leaders of the other parties and with the Convenor of the Cross-Benches to ascertain the most acceptable basis for proceeding. I think that I am acting within that spirit. I understand that such a matter could be put to a vote, but I do not believe that that has ever been done.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, I feel sure that the noble Lord the Leader of the House, and, indeed, Members in all parts of the House, will agree that the developments in South Africa over the weekend have been both a disappointment and a tragedy. In view of the close relationship that has existed for a very long period of time between this country and South Africa, it is not unreasonable that my noble friend Lord Hatch of Lusby should have made this request. The Leader of the House referred to the possibility of tabling a Starred Question. Would he give his equal support to the possibility of holding a debate on this matter by way of an Unstarred Question?
§ Lord WakehamMy Lords, of course, if the noble Lord asks me that question, I shall certainly have discussions with him to see what can be done.
§ Lord TordoffMy Lords, perhaps I may say from these Benches that, while we do not dissent to any great degree from what the noble Lord, Lord Hatch of Lusby, has said about the fears and the worries that exist over the present situation, we nevertheless feel that in the circumstances not much would be added to the greater pool of knowledge by a discussion in your Lordships' House this afternoon, especially at such short notice. We need much more information and much more awareness about this matter on all sides. Therefore, we support the Leader of the House in his decision not to accept the Question.
§ Lord WakehamMy Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his support.