South Africa (Hansard, 15 July 1992)

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, Her Majesty's Government have provided practical help to the Goldstone Commission of Inquiry into Public Violence and Intimidation in South Africa with the secondment of three experts. We shall support international initiatives that have the backing of all parties to reduce violence. We are playing our full part in efforts to get constitutional negotiations back on track as soon as possible.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. However, is she aware that President de Klerk and his Ministers have publicly admitted that they have been financing the Inkatha Freedom Party, which has been seen to be mainly responsible for the violence in the townships? Is she further aware that President de Klerk and his Ministers through all the negotiations have shown that their major design is to preserve and safeguard white supremacy rather than have a true non-racial democracy? As the Security Council is meeting tonight, can the noble Baroness tell the House what attitude the British Government will take when the council is asked by the African organisations to send monitors to help the situation in their country?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I am aware—and I am glad—that the Security Council is discussing South Africa today and that it will hear directly from the parties involved. We hope that the international community will give a strong signal that negotiations should resume as soon as possible. We also hope for unanimous support in the Security Council for resolutions that condemn violence from whatever quarter and call for the earliest possible resumption of talks.
To return to the earlier part of the question, President de Klerk has given a firm commitment that abuses by members of the security forces will be thoroughly investigated and that those suspected of illegal activities will be prosecuted. However, I cannot agree with the earlier part of the noble Lord's supplementary question.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, can the Minister say, first, whether the Government are satisfied that it is the intention of President de Klerk to introduce a constitution based on total equality between the races? Secondly, bearing in mind the great dangers involved and the debate taking place in the Security Council today, is it the view of Her Majesty's 225 Government that there is an important role for the United Nations to play in trying to lead towards a peaceful settlement?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, we all have a role to play in trying to get the various parties together to speak with one voice in the hope that the new Africa will emerge as it was continuing to do until the recent appalling massacre that took place.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Baroness for her comprehensive replies to these important questions. Can she say whether Her Majesty's Government favour the proposal to send a fact-finding mission to South Africa? Can she further say whether the Government are in fact making representations to the South African Government to ensure that the security forces there take a detached and neutral stance in the violence that is taking place?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, we recognise that there may be a role for international observers. But that is a matter for the South Africans to decide. We would consider responding positively within an appropriate international framework to any requests which came from all parties. We would expect the role of any such observers to be to strengthen existing structures established under the Peace Accord of September 1991.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, does the Minister agree that it is somewhat curious to imply, as the original Question appears to, that all violent deaths of black people in South Africa are to be attributed to President de Klerk and the South African Government? Is it not the case, for example, that a very large number of members of the Zulu Inkatha movement, especially in Natal, have been murdered by members of the ANC who are well armed with AK47 rifles?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, let me make it absolutely clear that HMG are appalled by the recent escalation in violence, especially the loss of life in Boipatong. As I said before, we have noted President de Klerk's commitment to bring those responsible to justice. We hope that that will happen as soon as possible. The causes of violence are complex; it is not for us to assign blame or level allegations. It is important that all the political leaders urge restraint on their followers.

§ Lord St. John of Bletso
My Lords, does the Minister agree that much of the violence in South Africa can be attributed to the poverty problem? Surely one of the major problems is to meet the expectations of the emancipated. Further, is the Minister aware that South Africa is currently suffering its third consecutive year of negative economic growth? Under the circumstances, will she put pressure on the ANC, COSATU and South African Communist Party (SACP) alliance not to proceed with their strike action planned for between 3rd and 9th August which will clearly devastate the economy, 226 cause an escalation of violence and deter foreign investment in South Africa which is desperately needed?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, with regard to the latter part of the noble Lord's question, I shall certainly pass on his remarks to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. However, in regard to the first part, the new South Africa will survive only if economic growth returns. I agree that the economy is flat and that the population grows by nearly 3 per cent. As the EC and the G7 have pointed out, a necessary condition for growth is access to foreign capital. That is why Britain is among the leaders in giving aid which will help all black people.

§ The Lord Bishop of Worcester
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that those who went to the funeral of the Boipatong victims were very concerned at the alienation of the young black Africans in the townships from their more moderate leaders? Therefore, can she, first, give an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will actually affirm and help to encourage the status of the moderate leadership in such a way that its credibility remains and that it is able to preserve the townships from the more extreme element? Secondly, will the Government be able to press President de Klerk to make even more concessions? I have no doubt that the noble Baroness is aware that many people are grateful that he has withdrawn one of the more controversial military units. There is the further matter of bringing to justice those who are guilty. Will she give us an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will seek that justice?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I think that I have already answered both questions. We are playing our full part in the efforts to get constitutional negotiations back on track as soon as possible. I said that President de Klerk's commitment is to bring to justice those responsible.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, is the Minister aware that all efforts designed to bring agreement and peace to South Africa depend upon the South African Government putting their security forces under discipline and control? Their absence is obvious to anyone who reads the newspapers and watches the news.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I think that I have already answered that question as well. I said that President de Klerk has given a firm commitment that abuses by members of the security forces will be investigated thoroughly and that those suspected of illegal activities will be prosecuted. If anyone has a fresh question, I should like to give a fresh answer.