§ 3.15 p.m.
§ Lord Juddasked Her Majesty's Government:
Whether they will make representations to the Secretary-General of the United Nations to establish a UN commission to investigate the Santa Cruz massacre of 12th November 1991.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (The Earl of Caithness)My Lords, the UN Secretary-General has said that he hopes to send a personal representative to East Timor to examine the situation further. That is a welcome step which we fully support.
§ Lord JuddMy Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Does he agree that high standing Indonesians have given disturbing accounts which are completely at odds with the official report of the inquiry in Indonesia; that there are now further disturbing reports of the systematic victimisation of people since the massacre; and that the UN rapporteur on torture has now reported to the UN Commission on Human Rights that there is the regular torture of political prisoners? In those circumstances, does the Minister accept that the House will be behind the Prime Minister in all the pressure that he can bring to bear when he is at the United Nations?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, we have studied the interim report of the national commission of inquiry made on 26th December and announced on 27th December. We issued a statement on 28th January. With regard to the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, yes, we fully support what the Secretary-General wishes to do and we shall give him all the help that he needs.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is this country still exporting armaments of one kind or another to Indonesia? Secondly, will the Minister give a categorical assurance that no British arms were used in the massacre referred to in my noble friend's Question?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, all countries have a sovereign right under the United Nations Charter to secure the means of their own self-defence. Applications to export British defence equipment are scrutinised carefully on a case-by-case basis. We do not allow the export of arms and equipment which are 1417 likely to be used for repressive purposes against civil populations. In the case of Indonesia, that criterion extends to the possible repression of the civil population of East Timor. We have no evidence to show that what has been sent to Indonesia has been used against the population of East Timor.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, I thought that I had given the noble Earl information that British machines were being used, and were used at the time of the massacre. That information was given to me and the public by an eye witness at the massacre who said that British Range Rovers were being used by the police and the armed forces. Has the noble Earl made any investigations to discover whether or not what I told him then was true?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, I believe that it was my noble friend Lord Cavendish of Furness who answered the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Hatch. I know that it is confusing for him that two different Ministers have been involved, but it might be right to get the correct person in future. My noble friend Lord Cavendish did say that Land Rovers were being used, but I believe that the House will agree with me that those are not arms.
§ Baroness Ewart-BiggsMy Lords, is it a fact that the United Kingdom is a major exporter of armaments to Indonesia?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, it depends upon what the noble Baroness means by "major". We have supplied some arms in the past, but, as I have said, under the UN Charter every country has the right to acquire arms for self-defence.
§ Lord JuddMy Lords, does the Minister accept that we are the second largest supplier of arms to Indonesia after the Americans; and that many people believe that the principal purpose of the Indonesian army is to suppress its own people? It is therefore difficult to advance convincing arguments that somehow we are not implicated in the horrible events that occurred during the massacre.
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, one has to look carefully at the structure of the government and the way in which Indonesia is run. The army plays an important role, as I believe the noble Lord knows. A great deal of the army's work is involved with construction, the building of schools and the creation of the infrastructure. I do not agree with many of the noble Lord's remarks.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is it not clear from all the evidence that the Indonesian Government are a cruel and repressive regime, responsible for massacres? What justification is there for selling arms to a government like that?
The Earl of CaithnessMy Lords, no one would, and the Government do not, condone what happened in East Timor when the Portuguese left in a hurry and there was no proper government of East Timor, or, indeed, after the Indonesians invaded and took control of East Timor. However, that is not to say that as a whole the Indonesian Government repress all 1418 their people. They have tried hard. No one could condone the East Timor incident and we seek to make sure that it does not happen again.
§ Viscount BrentfordMy Lords, in view of the massacre and in the light of the report, will my noble friend give some thought to encouraging the United Nations to consider sanctions against Indonesia, following the example of the Iraqi aggression against Kuwait?