§ Lord Astor of Heverasked Her Majesty's Government:
What role they envisage for HM Customs and Excise in the examination of Channel tunnel traffic either on-train or at terminals given the existence of a single European market.
§ The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)My Lords, Customs' role in relation to traffic through the Channel tunnel will be the same as for other intra-European Community traffic following the completion of the single European market. It will remove all fiscal and Customs formalities at internal frontiers, permitting the freest movement of legitimate traffic, both passengers and freight. All that will remain will be essential anti-smuggling checks focused upon major dangers to society, such as drugs. Checks for that purpose will be highly selective, relying upon improved intelligence assessments and closer co-operation with businesses and with enforcement agencies overseas.
§ Lord Astor of HeverMy Lords, I thank the noble Minister for that helpful reply. Can I assume, therefore, that there will be no need for any form of Customs inspection either at Waterloo or the proposed stations at Ashford or King's Cross?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, there will be a Customs presence at tunnel termini but that will be limited to anti-smuggling staff who will conduct spot checks of the type which I indicated in my original Answer. Those checks will be highly selective and targeted and of minimal inconvenience to the travelling public. They will not involve the introduction of a red and green channel system and all the traditional features of Customs control. However, with 62 per cent. of the total weight of drugs seized by Customs last year coming from or via other EC countries those checks will form a vital part of an integrated enforcement effort by Customs and police.
§ Lord Hailsham of Saint MaryleboneMy Lords, can we assume that the Commissioners for Customs and Excise will appoint a responsible tom-cat to intercept intrusive rodents?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I shall certainly bear that suggestion in mind. I have a cat which might be suitable for the job.
§ Lord Thomson of MonifiethMy Lords, will the Minister explain how his answers are consistent with what I understand to be the Government's proposals for Ashford, which involve physical separation between the international station and the local station so that there will be no easy communication between the two?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I am not aware of the exact physical characteristics of the proposed station at Ashford. However, as I have said, the checks necessary will be minimal and should involve very little inconvenience to the travelling public.
§ Lord Harmar-NichollsMy Lords, can my noble friend explain the difference between what he calls a spot check and the procedure now adopted at all ports, because I do not see any difference?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, there will be no red and green channels. People will go through a reception hall and may or may not be picked out for inspection.
§ Lord DonoughueMy Lords, I am sure that the taxpayer will be intrigued to see whether the numbers of Customs and revenue officers decline after a period. Bearing in mind that UK citizens will be able to bring into the UK 60 litres of champagne, 90 litres of wine and a kilogram of rolling tobacco will the Minister confirm the estimates of the loss of revenue to the Treasury of about £½ billion a year? Will he tell us what steps the Government are taking to promote harmonisation of duties after that period and whether those potential losses were taken into account when considering the pre-election tax cuts?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, I have to admire the noble Lord for his ingenuity in introducing a number of subjects which bear no relation to the Question on the Order Paper.
§ Lord Williams of ElvelMy Lords, would the noble Lord care to enlarge on his reply to the noble Lord, Lord Harmar-Nicholls? It seems to some of us to be very odd that there should be no red and green channels and yet apparently, according to the noble Lord, the procedure will be exactly that followed at the present red and green channels at the various entry points into the United Kingdom. How is that to be managed in a large entry hall through which people will come and go all over the place? What exactly is the Government's intention? How do they propose to conduct the spot checks? What will those spot checks be designed to achieve and who will be caught? Are the Government satisfied that they will be able to catch anybody who is smuggling the sort of material which the noble Lord has in mind?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, the purpose of the spot checks is indeed to catch people carrying illegal materials. The purpose is not to charge duty. There will be no duty-payable goods which need to be caught up. The selective work will rely, as it does to some extent at present, on an advance assessment of risk using improved intelligence, trade co-operation 255 giving access to commercial records through memoranda of understanding and co-operation across frontiers.
§ Lady KinlossMy Lords, does the Minister agree that, if it is easier for people to smuggle dogs or cats into the country, that is likely to spread rabies?
§ Lord Brabazon of TaraMy Lords, it is not easy for people to smuggle in dogs or cats.
§ Lord Mackie of BenshieMy Lords, perhaps the Leader of the House will rule on the expression "the noble Minister". As I understand it, a Lord is automatically noble, but the nobility of a Minister is a matter of opinion.
§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Waddington)My Lords, I shall consider the matter carefully and perhaps return to deal with it at some considerable length tomorrow.