Livestock Count: EC Proposal (Hansard, 12 February 1992)

§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Baroness Trumpington)
My Lords, the proposal to which the noble Lord refers is known as the integrated administration and control regime. It has not yet been discussed in Brussels but has been referred to a Council working group for detailed consideration. The Government are in favour of measures to fight fraud but have reservations about the cost-effectiveness and practicality of this proposal.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply. Will she communicate with her honourable friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in order to see to it that some personal examination takes place of the preliminary draft budget of the Commission for 1993 in view of the fact that expenditure of the magnitude that is required is likely to be spread over a number of titles? It is one way the Commission has of being able to obtain approval, largely unobserved, of the expenditure that it wants to undertake. Will she cause the Commission to be informed that the United Kingdom already has a comprehensive land registry, which is available to everyone including the Commission, and that we are quite capable of counting livestock, even on the move.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I shall be glad to pass on the noble Lord's message to my right honourable friend. I am aware that we have an 722 ordnance map that covers fields. However, I am not sure whether our European partners have the same. Frankly, apart from the fraud aspect, I should have thought that the information about cows would only be interesting to a bull.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, as a former member of the NFU, I should like to ask my noble friend what are the advantages which are supposed to arise from such proposals which many may think slightly ridiculous?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the Commission's proposals for reforming the CAP would replace existing support arrangements by a system of compensatory aid linked directly or indirectly to the cultivated area or the number of animals kept by each farmer. It is because of that new approach and the associated risk of fraud that the Commission has come forward with its proposal for an integrated administration and control system. If my noble friend understands that, he is a better man than I, Gunga Din.

§ Lord Ross of Newport
My Lords, I have actually looked in the ears of many cows and bulls in my time. Is it not a fact that most of our cattle are already tagged, or have their numbers written on them, so that it would not be quite so difficult to identify them?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I submit that it is a bit more complicated with goats and sheep.

§ The Earl of Radnor
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that our Ordnance Survey, for reasons of economy, is threatening to withdraw or discontinue the system of OS numbers which effectively numbers fields and outlying acreages? In view of this incomprehensible proposal from Brussels, does my noble friend agree that it is an unfortunate moment to do so? Therefore, will she use all her influence to stop such action because not only might it conform quite simply to the directive which may come from Brussels, but also it is of tremendous use to people in this country, especially surveyors?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the Commission has not yet produced any details. Therefore we must wait for them to emerge when the proposal is discussed in Brussels. With regard to the Ordnance Survey part of my noble friend's question, I can tell him that I shall certainly look into the matter.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, does the noble Baroness not agree that the proposal will make the crazy common agricultural policy even crazier? Further, is it not such nonsense which enables M. Jacques Delors to propose that the British net contribution over the next year or two should double from £2,500 million to £5 billion? Would it not be far better and far cheaper if agricultural policy was repatriated to the individual member states?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I suggest that we keep to the Question on the Order Paper. The Government will continue to make the point in 723 Brussels that it would be far better to have simpler, fraud-proof support systems in the first place than this convoluted sort of scheme.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that about one thousand years ago William the Conqueror assembled the Domesday Book cataloguing all the land and animals in this country—or rather, in England, I should say? Is it not a fact that we in agriculture in this country, whatever the faults of the CAP, suffer from a lack of system, as do those in several other countries, and that it is just possible that a simplified register may help this country?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, as I said before, we have no details of the proposal. Therefore, we do not know whether or not it is simple.

The Earl of Balfour
My Lords, in the agricultural negotiations with her European colleagues, will my noble friend encourage the reporting to the police and veterinary surgeons of the death of cattle as is practised in this country?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I believe that that suggestion is something that we can bear in mind.

§ Lord Gallacher
My Lords, the noble Baroness said quite correctly that the proposal—whether serious or comical, depending on one's point of view—stems directly from the proposals which Commissioner MacSharry has in hand for the restructuring of the CAP. Does she agree that Commissioner MacSharry is approaching the matter as though the GATT negotiations did not exist? Will Her Majesty's Government impress upon the Commission in general, and on Commissioner MacSharry in particular, that when we know the shape of the GATT settlement we shall then be in a better position to restructure the CAP?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to agree wholeheartedly with the noble Lord.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, in view of the fact that the noble Baroness has not been able to express the opposition of Her Majesty's Government to the whole nature of these proposals, will she ask her right honourable friends to bear in mind the fact that, in its report of about a year ago on the prevention of fraud, the Commission acknowledged that the cost of operations such as aerial photography, and all the associated measures, was not entirely financially satisfactory?

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, the content of the last report covered work carried out and progress achieved in 1990 in the fight against fraud. A summary of the report is contained in Explanatory Memorandum 5677/91 submitted by HM Treasury on 30th April 1991. The noble Lord may be interested to know that it is expected that the next progress report will be available by Easter.