HL Deb 04 February 1992 vol 535 cc240-56

8.12 p.m.

Lord Molloy rose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are taking any action to alleviate the plight of Kurds and Kuwaitis still in Iraq.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I should like to put on record that I have been to Kuwait and have seen the terrible things that have happened there. One of the most moving experiences was to see in street after street in Kuwait City, and way out to the oil fields, little green flags which said, "Thank you very much to the British people". I have seen some of the conditions in which our troops and our American allies had to fight. We were fortunate to have two brilliant commanders, Sir Peter de la Billiére and—I understand that I am allowed to say this—Sir Norman Schwarzkopf. Everything was wonderfully organised.

I should also like to pay tribute to those men and women who supported our Air Force and Navy and the various regiments and corps. Remarkable work was done by the allied forces. There was wonderful co-operation and superb planning. The only thing that I found irritating when I spoke to the British people there, the Kuwaitis themselves, and the Americans, was that they could not understand—I cannot give the words they used—why the dickens we did not continue the process of occupation as we occupied Germany. There was a similarity in the behaviour of both dictators. It is still something about which people ask and do not understand. I pay tribute also to the BBC and ITV personnel, both of television and sound radio, for the remarkable way in which they were able to keep us informed of what was going on.

There is a matter that is causing great anxiety to the people of Kurdistan, the Kurds in northern Iraq. They desperately want to return to rebuild their country. What happened to the people of Kuwait is probably one of the most sorrowful stories I have ever heard, even set alongside the many ghastly stories that emerged when we first entered Germany during the Second World War. People have given gruesome details of what occupation by the Iraqi army meant—how they had to stand by and see their mothers and sisters raped, and how men too were raped. Sometimes the Iraqi soldiers were most gleeful if they were able to have an audience that included the family. What has hurt the Kuwaitis most is the fact that the Iraqi soldiers took back to Iraq about 1,000 women and that hardly any of the soldiers taken prisoner by the Iraqis have been returned to Kuwait.

The refugees and prisoners of war are still in Iraq. People were abducted in their thousands and taken to Iraq. Yet the agreement upon which we insisted was that Saddam Hussein should pay £50-odd million for the oil fields; that everyone who was not Iraqi and belonged in Kuwait should be returned; and that the Kurds should be protected. We say those things but do nothing to enforce the United Nations resolution and the agreement made by senior officers at the time. Many people are unable to understand why we did not continue. One has to go there to understand what happened. There is anger and grief. When they are mixed, a dangerous situation is created.

There is one other aspect I should like to mention. Iraqis who were hidden by the Kuwaitis because of the enormous help they had given them have said, "First and foremost you will not get Saddam Hussein out easily". In saying "you", I believe that they meant the Americans. They have said, "You are more concerned with Saddam Hussein holding down the other awkward people in the north of his country. That will suit the policy of the United States of America". I believe there is some truth in that, disgraceful though it is. People also said that they must start forming an Iraqi government in exile. They hate Saddam Hussein and his evil Ba'ath people as much as anyone else. They feel that they must have an Iraqi opposition in exile.

I understand that in the other place Mr. Campbell-Savours has had discussions with the Prime Minister and has asked whether he will support any move by the Iraqi opposition to set up a parliament in exile. They would be an official Iraqi government, able to consider the United Nations sanctions and war reparations. In view of the terrible things that happened to the Kuwaiti people and the Kurdish people we should not have to negotiate with Saddam Hussein. We should respond to the pleas of those Iraqis who are admired in Kuwait—that is saying something—because of their hatred of their fellow countrymen, the Iraqi soldiers, for what they did.

Many crimes were committed. People can recognise the junior and middle grade Iraqi officers who enjoyed raping, killing and beating. They know who they are. Today those Iraqis are laughing at the United States and Great Britain. I cannot imagine what Sir Peter de la Billiére and General Norman Schwarzkopf are thinking, because I do not understand why we stopped. The fact that it was a short, quick war was due to the fantastic precision bombing of the Royal Air Force. It made a supreme contribution to the swift victory.

While in Kuwait I saw the oil wells that had been set on fire. As your Lordships are aware, one has to be a specialist in oil matters to be able to set an oil well on fire. There they were still blazing away by the hundreds. I was moved when the Kuwaiti people showed me stacks of anti-personnel and anti-tank bombs. I had some experience of such bombs in the invasion of Europe when I was a sapper. I had to deal with some of them. The British soldiers—the sappers—cleared the mines. They cleared away both the heavy anti-tank mines and also the hundreds of anti-personnel mines. There were, of course, a few deaths during that process but had it not been for the efforts of the Royal Engineers—the sappers—hundreds and perhaps even thousands of Kuwaiti children could have been killed or maimed.

I hope that the Government will consider carefully what can be done to improve the situation. We must think of a way in which we can ensure that the civilian hostages kidnapped by Saddam Hussein can be returned to Kuwait. We must obtain a watertight guarantee that prisoners of war who were captured by Saddam Hussein's army and taken back to Iraq will be returned. The Crown Prince of Kuwait has told me that the number of people who have been taken to Iraq, including prisoners of war, runs into thousands. Heaven knows how many people have survived that ordeal.

The Crown Prince remarked on the terrible grief of those who are left in Kuwait. He said the Kuwaitis feel grateful to the United States of America, to Great Britain and to all those who gave them their country back. He said he did not want to criticise those who had aided Kuwait but he said everyone must face up to what is happening now. The Crown Prince also referred to the position of the Kurds. He said he had heard accounts of what was happening to the Kurds. Those accounts were just as horrifying as the accounts of what was happening to the Kuwaiti prisoners in Iraq.

A number of years ago I visited Baghdad. I went there to investigate what was happening to the Kurdish people. Saddam Hussein, as well as being evil, is a cunning man. He told me I could visit the Kurds and speak to the Kurdish leaders. As soon as I met the Kurdish leaders I realised something phoney was going on as they were so exceedingly well dressed. They were wearing military uniforms. I realised they were Kurds as they spoke Kurdish. One or two Christians were present, but the others were Islamic.

The Kurdish leaders told me they were treated exceedingly well by the great Saddam Hussein. They said there were no problems and all the bad reports had been whipped up by the ridiculous, democratic Western press. I realised that some Kurdish leaders were prepared to sell their own people to a person who would destroy them by the hundred thousand as has occurred. It was awful to have to swallow what they told me.

There was a great deal of TV coverage of the misfortunes of the Kurds during the terrible winter of last year. However, they are now looking ahead. They must have seed to enable them to plant crops so they can grow next year's food. The Kuwaitis for their part want to see their missing relatives again. Many Kuwaitis pleaded with me to help them get their sons, daughters, fathers and mothers back to Kuwait.

I am sure that had this kind of situation occurred in this island anyone who had perpetrated such evil acts would know full well that every Briton in Scotland, Wales, England and parts of Ireland would be his sworn enemy. Such a person would be afraid of not seeing the sun rise the next day. We, however, have never had the need to act in such a way. I can quite understand the bitterness, anguish and terrible emotional pain felt by the Kurds and the Kuwaitis. All I am asking is that my country, through its Government, should endeavour to ensure that Saddam Hussein is removed, that people can return to their homelands and that that part of the world can enjoy the peace it so richly deserves.

8.24 p.m.

Lord Judd

My Lords, I greatly appreciate this opportunity to speak briefly in the debate this evening. I am sure we are all grateful to my noble friend Lord Molloy for giving us the opportunity to consider this subject together. I wish to speak in this debate because I visited Iraq towards the end of last year. I was able to go up to the north to visit the Kurds and also go down to the south and visit the Shi'as. I visited Sulimaniya, Said Saidiq, Basra and Asmara. I was able to talk with the heads of the UN operation there and their staff operating in the field in the various UN agencies, with personnel of the humanitarian voluntary agencies, and with various Iraqi officials and Iraqi leaders, particularly in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Since my visit I have tried to keep in touch and up to date with the latest news. The situation at the moment with the Kurds appears to be that the Iraqi Government are continuing their strict embargo on the north and indeed seem to be tightening it. The UN is experiencing increasing difficulties in getting things through from the south. Access from the north is, of course, difficult because of the mountains. That has led to food prices rising sharply. There is food to be had but only at a price. There is, however, an absolute shortage of kerosene and other heating fuels and the winter is severe.

Shelters provided by the United Nations High Commission for Refugees are now more or less complete and most people are housed in what are called "hard" shelters. However, we have to face the fact that those shelters were self-built—the United Nations supplied the materials—so families which could not provide labour (for example, families with female heads of households) are still badly housed in tents, prefabs or rehabilitated public buildings which had to be abandoned. Engineers from humanitarian agencies such as Oxfam have been helping to provide water and sanitation. Most of the efforts of the United Nations are taken up with emergency aid. This means that nothing is being done about agricultural regeneration for the longer term. Pressure is mounting for longer-term aid so that the Kurds can once again become self sufficient.

One urgent problem with which help is needed is the clearing of the mines which were heavily sown in agricultural land by both Iraqis and Kurds. Maps showing where the mines are situated are not available. As the mines are plastic, they are particularly difficult to detect. That acute problem must be dealt with before agricultural regeneration can go ahead.

I wish to say a few words about the Shi'as in the south because I believe the media have rightly highlighted the problems of the Kurds in the north, which are acute, but I am disturbed by the degree to which the plight of the Shi'as has not received the same amount of attention. There does not appear to have been any new news in the past few days and weeks apart from information that the situation remains unstable. There are continuing reports of resistance activities and evidently the marshes still harbour guerrillas. However, as I have said, hard news is still difficult to come by.

Oxfam and other humanitarian agencies that are operating with the Shi'as are beginning to think about training programmes, for example to enable engineers to maintain machinery—to make do and mend—as the difficulties of importing new parts for machines mean that self-reliance will be necessary.

As regards the Kuwaitis in Iraq, my latest information is that human rights groups here in the United Kingdom report some 1,200 people still missing. As my noble friend Lord Molloy has said, that is a grave situation and a challenge to us all.

We should note that the next round of oil sale talks between the United Nations and Iraq is due to start in about a week or 10 days' time. In the previous round—if one is trying to look for any encouragement in a grim situation—it seems that Iraq gave some indications that it was beginning to look for compromises. Indeed, there are indications that it admitted the invasion of Kuwait to have been a mistake. That is easy to say, but it is at least something that it has been said. Saddam Hussein has recently admitted that Iraq suffered a military defeat, although he continues to claim a moral and spiritual victory.

I should like to make one further observation in our debate this evening. We are faced with a special situation in Iraq. It is not a situation which can be compared with that of Germany in 1945. There has not been a total defeat of the enemy resulting in the challenge of rebuilding a country from scratch. It was specifically declared that the war aim was not to remove the government in Baghdad and that that was a matter specifically for the Iraqi people.

We have seen what happened. The Kurds made their stand, and look how they have been treated. The Shi'as made their stand. In Basra and Asmara I was appalled by the damage caused not by the allied war but as a result of the Shi'as trying to do something about their own situation in response to encouragement from outside the country.

The present regime remains in place. We continue to say that it is an internal task for Iraq and the Iraqi people to change the political situation. In view of the nature of that regime I would take second place to nobody in standing by firm and strong sanctions. They are essential. However, in a situation in which we say that change must occur internally, I wonder whether we should introduce a carrot as well as a stick. When one visits the country and sees at first hand the scale of the damage to the infrastructure—water systems destroyed, sewerage systems destroyed, health programmes in tatters—and sees the reality for the ordinary people, it becomes very clear that that cannot be put right by voluntary humanitarian agencies operating from outside, nor even by the UN agencies. It is a major task, and the social infrastructure should be restored by the government of the country.

I should like to suggest that, without in any way relaxing sanctions, we should be prepared to make the following proposal to the Iraqi administration. If they will come to us with the first instalment of a humanitarian programme which they will run with our co-operation to tackle the humanitarian challenges of the destroyed social infrastructure of the country, we will be prepared to allow Iraq to sell sufficient oil to undertake the first instalment of that programme. We will monitor progress extremely carefully and, depending on what happens in that first instalment, we will be prepared to consider a second instalment.

The problem with the present situation is that, while we are prepared to allow Iraq to sell some oil to generate funds for a humanitarian relief programme, that programme would in effect be administered by the United Nations and outsiders. Therefore, while we say that political change must come about internally we bypass all the political realities of the country. We do not thrust any responsibility on to the administration—however appalling and however much we condemn that administration—to force it to face its responsibilities before the people. I am fearful that Saddam Hussein may try to turn the situation into a propaganda victory by saying that outsiders are insisting on doing everything and he is not allowed to do anything.

I believe that, if we really care for the Iraqis, who have had no opportunity to influence events under tyranny, and for the Kurds, the Shi'as and the Kuwaitis caught in that country, we face a tremendous challenge to our ingenuity in our diplomacy. Without in any way relaxing our firmness on sanctions, thereby guaranteeing that only goods of which we approve enter that country we must at least try to begin to open up the situation and find crevices and nooks in which some internal chemistry of change might begin to take place in that country.

8.34 p.m.

Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Molloy for giving us an opportunity to raise the issue of the Kurdish people. I feel that we have an obligation to debate the subject because, while there are no easy solutions, at least awareness of the problem should be demonstrated by those who appreciate how dreadful the conditions are.

My noble friend Lord Molloy described graphically the terrible conditions to which the Kurds have been subjected. The honourable Member for Cynon Valley in another place, who is responsible for the Official Opposition's overseas aid programme, has written a very moving article in this week's edition of Tribune in which she describes a visit to the Kurds and the appalling conditions which they are suffering.

I have spoken previously in your Lordships' House about the plight of the Kurdish people. I have referred to the appalling events at Halabja where there was a chemical attack resulting in enormous loss of life. The problem must not be forgotten. It is one to which there has to be a political solution. There are over 20 million Kurds. I believe that it is the largest nation group which does not have a state of its own. While the present situation continues we must keep searching for a political settlement.

Links with the Kurdish leaders should he developed as far as possible. Some of the Kurdish leaders were invited to be present at the Labour Party Conference last year. I hope that that will happen again. I know that the Government will do what they can to establish and maintain links.

The suffering is appalling. The winter is particularly bitter. I am told that in places supplies of electricity and gas have been cut off. I hope that the ideas put forward by my noble friend Lord Judd from his wide practical experience of these matters will be considered seriously.

A form of genocide has been committed against the Kurdish people. We must remember that it is not only in Iraq that they are persecuted. They have also suffered in Syria, Iran and to some extent in Turkey. They are basically a peaceful people. If they are given the opportunity I am sure that they will live in peace with their neighbours because they have not had control of their own land for some 400 years yet they have always done their best to get on with the people who have been in charge.

There is now a great deal of talk about a new world order and tomorrow your Lordships will hold a substantial debate on the aftermath of the break-up of what we knew as the Soviet Union. I mentioned last week that it is surprising that those of us who have lived under the shadow of the cold war for all our adult lives and thought how wonderful it would be when that shadow was lifted find that, now that that great monolithic bloc has disintegrated, the world faces all sorts of problems. One could say that in many ways the world is a more dangerous place now than when the cold war was at its harshest.

I do not expect the Minister to give us any easy answers. I know that he is very concerned about these matters. During the Gulf War a great deal of publicity, particularly television publicity, was given to the plight of the Kurds. There was great awareness of their plight. To some extent that has diminished and we have to make sure that the issue is kept in the minds of people who are in a position to influence events.

There are some 12,000 Kurds living peacefully in this country. They do not demonstrate, take hostages or explode bombs to draw attention to their case. We should not only think of the people who are suffering but also of the Kurds in this country and do what we can to foster links. I hope that working through the United Nations and the relief organisations we can bring some amelioration to this appalling human tragedy.

8.40 p.m.

Lord Tordoff

My Lords, we are indeed grateful for the opportunity to put Iraq on the agenda, in particular in relation to the Kurds, the Kuwaitis and, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, properly said, the Shi'as in the south. I have not been into Iraq; noble Lords will know that I was on the Iranian side of the border last year looking at the refugee camps in both the Kurdish areas and the Shi'ite areas in the south. That brings home to one what life is like at the tough end of society.

Perhaps we have dwelt on the results of last year's conflict. We should not forget that the problems go back 10 years. In 1980, before the Iran-Iraq war broke out—before Saddam Hussein invaded Iran—he called together a group of 1,250 businessmen to go to a seminar. After they had had a brief discussion in the morning they were invited to dinner in the evening. They were put on buses and at the point of machine guns were forced over the Iranian border and told that they were Iranian spies. That was bad enough for them, but the government of Iraq then started to take hostages among their families. The whereabouts of many of those hostages are still not known today. One of the matters that we must determine if we possibly can is what has happened to those poor people. I am sure that many are now dead. But for the sake of their families and relatives, many of whom now live in Western Europe, we ought to do our best to give them the peace of mind of knowing where their relatives are.

Rightly, the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, has brought the Kuwaitis into the discussion. The situation is slightly different with regard to the Kuwaitis. They were deported from their country by Saddam Hussein's regime in the course of the Gulf War. Again, no one knows where a number of those people are today.

I listened with considerable interest to what the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said. I find it interesting that he suggests there are carrots which can be offered. I hope that he is right. It is very easy to take a totally negative view of the Iraqi regime. On balance, I believe that one is right to do so. However, if there is any hope that by offering some carrots we can begin to unravel this wretched situation, what the noble Lord said from his considerable experience ought to be taken into account.

Over a period of 10 to 12 years the number of people about whom we speak runs into hundreds of thousands. Some of them have been released and have been able to return to their homes. But many have disappeared, I fear for ever.

Can the Government bring us up to date on the situation of the United Nations? I understand that there is an inquiry team which is either in Iraq or about to go there. If so, I should be interested to know what questions it is empowered to ask. For instance, is it able to visit prisons to try to establish where some of those people are? I understand that the International Committee of the Red Cross has been trying to get into some of the prisons and has been refused access. Is that true?

If the inquiry team is able to make contact with the parts of the Iraqi government which are capable of rational discussion, the questions that need to be asked are these. Why are those people being imprisoned? Have they committed crimes? Have they ever been tried? What are their specific sentences? What are the conditions of their detention? What humanitarian contact can be made with people who are in prison? Can their families send them letters? That at least would be some relief to the people who have been deprived of contact for many years and doubtless for those who are incarcerated. We know that the hostages in Lebanon were greatly perked up by the ability to receive messages, whether through the World Service of the BBC or by letters which eventually managed to reach them. Those questions ought to be asked of the Iraqi regime, either directly by the Government or through the various agencies.

We should bear in mind that a number of those people are not prisoners of war; they are not prisoners of conscience; they are not political prisoners. They are hostages. The Iraqi government took those people hostage in order to put pressure on their families in Kurdistan and in Western Europe. That is one of the most abominable ways of dealing with people.

It is very easy to become over-emotional over the situation. However, we need cool heads. We need to work out precisely, step by step, what we can do, not to assuage our own feelings but to improve the lot of the people who are being kept hostage in prison and in particular to help their families in this country and in other parts of the world.

It is a terrible situation. I do not go along with those who say that the troops should have continued to fight. The political situation in the Middle East would have been made much worse if we had not had a clear mandate from the United Nations. The Gulf War was fought on a very clear agenda. To have stepped outside it, to have gone beyond it, would have totally undermined our credibility in the whole of the Arab world. The war was successful in so far as it was capable of being successful. Nevertheless, we are all conscious of a sense of failure that we were not able to topple the regime of Saddam Hussein and that we left so many of those people in his hands.

I hope that the Government are using every means in their power to ensure that international agencies are doing their best to secure the release of those poor people.

8.47 p.m.

Baroness Ewart-Biggs

My Lords, I too am grateful to my noble friend Lord Molloy for tabling the Motion and for introducing the debate in his vivid and emotive fashion. His loyalty in upholding the cause of the Kurdish people has been constant and much admired by the House.

We have heard from the speakers in the debate about the political impasse which is the background to the situation affecting the Kurdish people while at the same time a serious humanitarian situation affects them. Iraq's abuse of human rights has been well documented by human rights organisations such as Amnesty International and Middle East Watch. I fear that it is only too evident that Saddam Hussein's dictatorship has been characterised by repression and horrific cruelty. No words can be found to describe one's feelings about the system which Saddam Hussein has used against the Kurds. Torture, extra-judicial killings and massacres have been quite routine within his country.

The price of opposition is often death. Saddam Hussein's forces have killed thousands of men, women and children and depopulated whole areas of the country. As is known, much of that was achieved with weapons and military equipment which were sold by Western governments and armaments companies. It is our hope that such exporters will now be more discriminatory in their sales of arms in the future.

As my noble friend Lord Cocks said, Saddam Hussein's barbarity towards the Kurds amounted to genocide. For example, the operation A1-Anfal, launched in 1987, claimed thousands of lives as whole villages were razed and their Kurdish inhabitants massacred. The exact death toll will probably never be known. However, it is safe to say nearly every family in Iraqi Kurdistan lost at least one relative in that slaughter. Those people were targeted because they were Kurds.

In 1988 more than 5,000 Kurds were killed at Halabja, as mentioned by my noble friend Lord Cocks, when Saddam Hussein's forces used chemical weapons against them. There is mounting evidence to suggest that that was just one tragic episode in what was and will be again a systematic campaign of genocide, unless the UN prevents it.

Will the Minister indicate whether any advances have been made by the UN team investigating the evidence on Iraqi genocide in its steps to consider and punish those responsible for perpetrating such outrages? Will he give the House an assessment of the human rights situation in Iraq and indicate any progress made by the UN in securing the release of those Kuwaitis and other nationals abducted by the Iraqi army at the end of the Gulf War?

Saddam Hussein's conduct in the aftermath of the Kuwait conflict suggests that he plans to continue as he started against the Kurds—by using the maximum force and cruelty against them. Such fears are borne out by the fact that Iraqi forces have continued their attacks on the Kurds in the north and the Shi'as in the south. It is indeed tragic that these attacks have taken place despite the allies safe haven strategy and the passing of various UN Security Council resolutions to protect the Kurds.

Another aspect of Iraqi aggression has been the imposition of an economic blockade against the Kurds. Will the Minister indicate the advances that are being made by the UN in putting pressure on Iraq to lift the blockade that it has imposed on the Kurds in the north? Surely that must be a matter of the greatest urgency.

In a most powerful speech my noble friend gave an account of his visit to Iraq a few months ago. He suggested an approach which included a carrot as well as a stick. Given the impasse that now exists, I believe that the suggestion warrants consideration. He maintained his belief in sanctions remaining in force while at the same time encouraging Saddam Hussein and his regime to comply with Security Council resolutions.

I fear that Saddam Hussein's intentions towards the Kurdish people are very clear. The Kurds are most anxious that the allied forces and their cover and the presence of the United Nations organisations will disappear. Again, will the Minister indicate how long the forces will remain in the region; and does he believe that that will give the Kurds the reassurance that they need?

My noble friend Lord Judd gave an idea of the relief programme that is being carried out. I have had reports from UNICEF, which is an active force in the north of Iraq. It reports the most serious conditions pertaining to women and children, given the extreme weather conditions, the extreme poverty and the lack of valuable resources. I had a report from UNICEF Baghdad only this morning describing the hospital in Sulaymaniyah. Clearly the death rate among children even in the hospital is high. However, people are worried even more by the fact that few children are brought to the hospital because of the high cost of getting in there and the severe weather conditions. Therefore, the mortality rate among children is very high.

My noble friend Lord Judd also illustrated that relief work is not the answer when so much work needs to be done in reconstruction. He gave examples of the way in which we should be moving away from the patchwork relief work, which of course is alleviating the problems but is not striking at their roots towards reconstruction.

Will the Minister comment upon the elections that are scheduled to take place in Kurdistan on 3rd April? After all, they will be the first democratic elections to take place on Iraqi soil. Will UN or EC observers be sent to the elections? How will the elections affect dealings with the present Baghdad regime?

It is clear that the Kurds remain in a desperate plight, despite the safe haven operation, the passing of different UN resolutions to protect them and a UN relief operation to protect their basic humanitarian needs. Continuing Iraqi aggression and Saddam Hussein's imposition of an economic blockade have placed the Kurds in the gravest of dangers. Given the UN's role in the much heralded new world order we can hope only that it will be empowered to bring immediate pressure to bear on the Iraqis to lift the blockade and to stop the attacks on the Kurds. A great deal depends on that.

Everything that I have read indicates that Kurdish leaders have a great fear that the world will forget about their plight and that international opinion will again move to some other crisis. If that happens they know that any hope of their problems being solved will pass away yet again.

8.57 p.m.

Lord Canvendish of Furness

My Lords, I too am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, for giving us the opportunity to draw attention once again to the Iraqi Government's blatant disregard for internationally accepted norms of behaviour. He spoke with passion and from first-hand experience. The comments made by your Lordships tonight illustrate only too well the way in which Saddam Hussein's regime continues to inflict suffering and hardship both on his own people and on his neighbours.

The appalling human rights record of the Iraqi Government is also well documented. The abuses inflicted by the Iraqi dictatorship include the use of chemical weapons against its own unarmed civilian population in 1988; appalling atrocities committed during the occupation of Kuwait; the mistreatment of Western hostages and prisoners; and the brutal suppression of uprisings by the civilian population in the north and the south of Iraq after the Gulf conflict.

Perhaps I may turn first to the situation in northern Iraq. We are very concerned about reports that an economic blockade imposed by the Iraqi authorities on northern Iraq has become more severe in recent weeks. We are monitoring developments carefully in consultation with our allies. We are also discussing with the UN relief agencies how to ensure that adequate humanitarian supplies continue to reach the population of northern Iraq in spite of the blockade. Security Council Resolution 688 demanded that Iraq end its repression against the civilian population and co-operate with the humanitarian effort. We have told the Iraqis that we expect them to respect this resolution. We are determined that they shall do so.

When the current phase of the Kurdish crisis began in March 1991 we were at the forefront of the international response. Thanks to the initiative of the Prime Minister, safe havens were established in northern Iraq. An enormous international relief effort was mounted to sustain the civilian population there. Many lives were saved.

The international relief effort continues. We have contributed more than £45 million to it since April 1991. We shall continue to be ready to respond to humanitarian needs in Iraq. The UN and other international agencies have done an excellent job in protecting the Iraqi people from the worst of the privations visited on them by their government. They have provided shelter, food and medicine. The UNHCR winterisation programme in the north has provided shelter for more than 500,000 displaced Kurds and enabled them to face the onset of winter in safety. In addition to the provision of shelter they are repairing and upgrading hospitals and water supplies. Thousands of kerosene stoves, blankets and tents are being distributed.

However, as the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, has explained so graphically, there is no room for complacency. The Kurds will not feel secure while Saddam Hussein continues to oppress them through the economic blockade and while the threat of military action remains. Fortunately, international assistance continues to reach the area. The international community must sustain its efforts. We shall not idly stand by. The Minister for Overseas Development has proposed an international donor conference with the United Nations later this month. The aim of the conference would be to ensure the continued effective co-ordination of the international response to the latest UN inter-agency appeal for relief operations in Iraq. In reply to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs, perhaps I may say that that will be an opportunity to consider long-term structural development needs. In that, we should include agriculture.

We have kept in close touch with Kurdish political leaders and assured them that we will not lose interest in their plight. We continue to maintain a coalition deterrent force in southern Turkey to deter any renewed systematic repression in northern Iraq. We are grateful to the Turkish Government for hosting that force and for agreeing to a further extension of its presence until June 1992. The noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs, asked for how long that would last. As I understand it, the agreement with the Turkish Government is renewed on a six-monthly basis.

This force has been successful in deterring further large-scale military attacks on the civilian population. It has been a significant factor for stability in the area. We have assured Kurdish leaders that we shall keep up the pressure on Saddam Hussein to respect his obligations. We shall not be prepared to lift sanctions until he has implemented UN Security Council resolutions in full. We are determined to bring home to him that he has no alternative but to comply.

However, that pressure is directed at the Iraqi Government not the Iraqi people. The solution to the humanitarian problem in Iraq lies in Saddam Hussein's hands. The UN Security Council has established a mechanism under Resolution 706 and 712 for Iraq to finance humanitarian supplies out of oil revenues and for strict monitoring of the distribution of supplies throughout the country. Iraq is now discussing implementation with the UN. The scheme must be implemented promptly in order to ensure that supplies reach all those Iraqis in need. We will keep up the pressure on Iraq to do so.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, asked me about that mechanism. I was grateful to the noble Lord for his contribution and his first-hand experience. I know that he is closely in touch with these matters. He asked whether we should adopt a carrot and stick approach. Perhaps I should expand on the mechanism established by the UN which contains strict controls to prevent abuse by the Iraqis.

All revenues collected from Iraqi oil sales will be paid into a UN-controlled escrow account. Only when the UN has approved the humanitarian use to which the proceeds will be put will the funds be released. The UN would then monitor the distribution of humanitarian supplies purchased. Unfortunately, the Iraqi regime has not yet agreed to co-operate in the implementation of the scheme and they should do so now. I hope that that conveys that there is an element of carrot and stick. However, I was extremely interested to hear the noble Lord's views.

The noble Lord, Lord Molloy, asked why we left Saddam Hussein in power. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, accepted that there was perhaps not much room for manoeuvre. The coalition stated its war aims very clearly. The noble Lord will remember the sensitivity required to get a coalition in place. Those aims included the removal of the Iraqi forces from Kuwait and the restoration of the legitimate government there. With hindsight it is easy to say that we should have gone further, but the noble Lord will know that there would have been much hostility from many quarters had we done so.

The noble Lord mentioned the contact of Mr. Campbell-Savours with the Prime Minister about the Iraqi government in exile. We have met Iraqi opposition leaders and shall continue to keep in touch with them. We shall encourage their efforts. I hope that the noble Lord accepts —and I know it is easy to say—that it is not for us to decide who should govern Iraq. Ultimately it will be for the Iraqi people to choose the government when the time comes.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, that proposition came mainly from American Iraqis. I spoke to them. They wanted to see whether they could represent the Iraqi people pro tem to restore some of the honour of their countrymen after the disgrace which Saddam Hussein has imposed upon them. Once Saddam Hussein has gone, their role as a pro tem exile government would cease so that proper democratic elections could take place.

Lord Cavendish of Furness

My Lords, as I have said, we quarrel with the regime, not with the people. I hope that it is understood that we do not blame innocent people for the atrocities. For the time being we shall continue to stay in touch with the leaders.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, spoke of the effect of sanctions. It is Saddam Hussein's misguided policies which brought Iraq to its present position. He continued to inflict suffering on his people by his stubborn refusal to implement Security Council resolutions in full. We want all Iraqi people to be able to receive food, medicine and humanitarian supplies and that is why we have made the contribution of £45 million since April 1991.

Lord Judd

My Lords, I am grateful that the Minister is replying so fully. Perhaps I can explain that there is a difference between the arrangements that might be entered into with the Iraqi government for humanitarian relief aid following the sales of a certain agreed amount of oil, and the income generated by that, and the task of reconstructing the social infrastructure of the country. Without that social infrastructure being reconstructed the needs of the people cannot be met.

Lord Cavendish of Furness

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Judd, makes a powerful point. To confirm that, I shall consider the matter and consult with colleagues. I shall write to him and copy the letter to all who have taken part in the debate. I do recognise the noble Lord's experience.

The noble Lord, Lord Judd, spoke also of the problems in the South. Although it is not strictly speaking the subject of the Question I should like to take this opportunity to say that we do not ignore the plight of the people there. The United Nations has a humanitarian centre in Basra and has been pressing the Iraqis to permit the establishment of a further humanitarian centre at Nasariya close to the marshes. Again, the Iraqis have so far refused. We strongly support an expansion of the United Nations presence there.

We raised our anxieties about the South direct with the Iraqis, the UN and with Mr. Van der Stoel, the UN rapporteur on human rights in Iraq. We have also met representatives of the Shi'a community to hear from them about the situation first hand. Since September 1991 we have given £1.5 million to UNICEF for medicines, water and sanitation in the South; £268,000 to Save the Children for water and sanitation in the South and almost £700,000 to the organisations working to help refugees from southern Iraq in south west Iran. We recently approved a contribution of £300,000 for further relief work in southern Iraq and my understanding is that that has been paid and is administered through the organisation CARE.

The noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, asked about a visit by the United Nations human rights team to Iraq. He asked whether the International Red Cross gained access to Kuwaiti detainees and about the conditions under which they are held. Again, the United Nations rapporteur on human rights visited Iraq in January. We look forward to hearing the report of his visit which he will present to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights this month. I regret that Iraq has not yet provided details of the whereabouts of missing Kuwaitis or given access to the ICRC. The ICRC continues to press for information and in that it has our full support.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ewart-Biggs, asked about elections in Kurdish regions. We shall examine with interest proposals by Kurdish leaders to hold elections in northern Iraq. We have often told them that it is in their interests to work together and speak with one voice. We hope that any elections will promote that aim. We want to see a democratic and pluralistic system in Iraq in which all sectors of the population enjoy respect for human and political rights.

With regard to the question of whether there shall be visits I am afraid that I do not know what the normal code is for these things. I will need to write to the noble Baroness in that regard. The noble Baroness also asked about progress made by the United Nations investigating genocide by the Iraqi regime. The rapporteur on human rights to whom I referred presented an interim report on Iraq's human rights performance in November. Criticisms contained in it were damning. He will present his full report to the United Nations Commission this month for its consideration and we look forward to hearing his conclusions.

The noble Lord, Lord Molloy, also raised the question of Kuwaitis missing in Iraq. The Kuwaiti people have had to bear many cruel hardships over the past 18 months, as described in detail by the noble Lord, Lord Molloy. But few can have suffered more than the families of those Kuwaiti and other nationals who are still missing or unaccounted for in Iraq. We feel deeply for their plight. This is yet another example of the callous and inhuman attitude of the Iraqi Government.

Iraq's obligation to assist the International Committee of the Red Cross in tracing and repatriating Kuwaiti and other nations held in Iraq since the Gulf conflict was spelt out clearly by the UN Security Council in Resolution 687 of April 1991. It was reaffirmed in subsequent resolutions. The ICRC has tried patiently and persistently to pursue this mandate. We have given it our full support. The Kuwaiti Government have also provided details of some 2,000 Kuwaiti citizens whom they believe to be in Iraq. In spite of numerous approaches, the Iraqi authorities have failed to provide any adequate or convincing response to ICRC enquiries. They continue to delay or obstruct efforts to secure information about and access to these detainees. The UN Secretary General prepared a report on Iraqi compliance with the requirements of Security Council Resolution 687 for the Security Council's latest review of sanctions in January. That report sets out only too clearly the painstaking efforts by the ICRC to make progress and the inadequacy of Iraq's response. I am afraid that that is the very disappointing news that I have to give your Lordships' House tonight. The noble Lord, Lord Tordoff, is absolutely right in that in effect these prisoners are hostages.

The British Permanent Representative in New York has raised during the periodic reviews of sanctions by the Security Council the question of missing Kuwaiti nationals. The Security Council has concluded on each occasion that there is no case for relaxing the sanctions regime—in that I have had support from all sides of the House—while Iraq continues to flout the will of the Security Council. We shall continue to take every opportunity to remind the Iraqis of their obligations. We shall continue to impress on them that there will be no relaxation of sanctions until they meet those obligations.

In spite of all the efforts of the international community, many Iraqis continue to live in fear of the regime's intentions towards them. The people of Kuwait still wait for news of missing loved ones, for the return of looted property and for compensation for their losses. Saddam Hussein must know that the international community will not lose interest in any of these issues. I can assure noble Lords that we shall maintain sanctions until Iraq has implemented the UN Security Council resolutions in full. Only when Iraq has met its UN obligations in full can it possibly be accepted back into the community of nations. Continued international pressure will be necessary to prevent further excesses occurring and to ensure that the people of Iraq can live without fear of repression and their neighbours without fear of intimidation or attack. I can assure noble Lords that Britain will continue to play its full part in maintaining that pressure.

House adjourned at sixteen minutes past nine o'clock.