HL Deb 17 December 1992 vol 541 cc656-8

11.47 a.m.

Lord Swinfen

My Lords, I beg to move that this Bill be now read a third time.

I should like to take the opportunity to thank all those who have taken part in the various stages of the Bill for their support, and also my noble friend Lord Cranborne for the courteous way in which he has dealt with it. However, I shall be grateful if, when speaking to his right honourable friend the Secretary of State, he will particularly draw to his attention the contributions at Committee stage of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Carver, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner. Perhaps he will also draw attention to the correspondence placed in the Library of this House from my noble friend Lord Cranborne to me of 10th December, copied to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, and a letter of the following day from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, to my noble friend. That may help the Secretary of State when considering the Bill in another place. I beg to move.

Moved, That the Bill be now read a third time.—(Lord Swinfen.)

Lord Williams of Elvel

My Lords, the House is grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, both for introducing the Bill and for carrying it through all its stages.

I intervene briefly to urge on the Government that they take the Bill seriously and do not simply kill it off in another place. We had certain objections to the Bill at an earlier stage but, as amended, it seems to me to do a job which is needed; to correct a wrong which many people felt should perhaps have been corrected earlier. I hope therefore that the noble Viscount will be able to give us an assurance that the Government are taking the matter seriously.

Lord Mayhew

My Lords, there can be few noble Lords who have amended a Bill so drastically to meet the objections on Second Reading of the Government. The Bill deserves from the Government a great deal more support than I am afraid it is likely to get.

Lord Ashley of Stoke

My Lords, this Bill was introduced in before I entered the House. However, I wish to say a few brief words to commend it before it leaves the House because I understand that the Government intend to kill it. I have a special interest because this matter began with my constituent Martin Ketterick and my campaign to abolish Section 10 of the Crown Proceedings Act 1947 in another place. The Bill introduced then was opposed vociferously by the Ministry of Defence. Defence Ministers said that under no circumstances could they allow the abolition of Section 10 of the Crown Proceedings Act as that would damage discipline and the measure would be unworkable. They gave other reasons also.

That Bill aimed to correct an injustice, and this Bill aims to correct an injustice, against members of the Armed Forces. Precisely the same kind of arguments are being used by the Minister on this occasion. I urge the Government to think again because if they kill the Bill great injustice will be perpetuated against active service personnel. That would be damaging not only to service personnel but also to the Government.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Viscount Cranborne)

My Lords, I am sure that all of us in your Lordships' House are extremely grateful to my noble friend Lord Swinfen not only for the courteous way in which he introduced his legislation but also for the persistence he has shown in pursuing the interests of service men and service women. I congratulate my noble friend. It is not given to many of your Lordships to introduce a Bill and pursue it through all its stages from the Back Benches between September and Christmas.

We have had the considerable advantage of listening to distinguished contributions from a gratifyingly large number of your Lordships. I recall the notably distinguished contributions of the noble Lords, Lord Mayhew and Lord Williams of Elvel, but I also remember contributions from a number of other noble Lords and noble Baronesses, notably the noble Earl, Lord Cork and Orrery, the noble Lords, Lord Henderson of Brompton and Lord Milverton, and, if it is not an invidious comparison to draw, the contributions from the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Carver, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, whose comments during the Committee stage of the Bill will be forever branded on my memory. I am most grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Ackner, for the contribution that he made and also for the most helpful letter which he put in pursuance of the correspondence referred to by my noble friend Lord Swinfen, in the Library. That letter would repay further study on the part of all noble Lords who are interested in this important subject.

It is a constant source of satisfaction to me and the department that your Lordships act so very effectively as a welcome trades union for the Armed Forces. There is a more powerful and knowledgeable lobby in your Lordships' House for the Armed Forces and for their welfare than perhaps there is in another place. That situation arises from the considerable experience that a number of noble Lords have of the Armed Forces.

I was particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Ashley of Stoke, for his intervention. As he said, he was not able to take part in the earlier stages of the Bill but I remember from my time in another place the leading part he played in the repeal of Section 10. That was a cause I found myself very much in sympathy with at the time, and I continue to be sympathetic towards it, particularly when I see the beneficial events and circumstances that have occurred as a result of the repeal of that legislation.

However, in spite of all the persuasive arguments deployed by your Lordships, and although we agree wholly with the objective behind my noble friend's Bill, we are still doubtful—in spite of the advice we have been given during the past weeks and months—about whether that objective can best be served by the Bill as amended by my noble friend. We shall, of course, study and take with the greatest degree of seriousness the remarks made by your Lordships. I can certainly give the noble Lord, Lord Williams, and my noble friend Lord Swinfen an undertaking that I shall draw to the attention of my right honourable friend, before the Bill appears in another place, the remarks that have been made.

On Question, Bill read a third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.