Human Rights and Bilateral Aid (Hansard, 9 December 1992)

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Chalker of Wallasey)
My Lords, good government is an important condition for sustainable development. We take fully into account recipients' performance over time on human rights before deciding aid applications. We support projects to help developing countries raise their standards of government, including the observance of human rights.

§ Lord Archer of Sandwell
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer. Does she recollect that on 12th November my noble friend Lord Judd asked in relation to Indonesia whether we were using the threat of withdrawing aid or were just making polite representations, and that she replied: "My Lords, indeed we are"? Can she elaborate a little on that answer; and can she say specifically in relation to Indonesia how many more political murders, what degree of torture and what further evidence of genocide would be required before the human rights situation is reflected in decisions about aid?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I realise that my answer to the noble Lord, Lord Judd, on that occasion was rather short. Let me assure your Lordships that we have ensured that the Indonesian Government are fully aware of our views on the human rights situation, not only in East Timor but also in general terms. We shall continue to use every available opportunity to make our concern clear to the Indonesians. I believe that there have been some improvements over recent years, but by no means enough. We shall continue to work with friends and partners to influence the Indonesian authorities and to make sure that they realise that no torture is acceptable, no genocide is acceptable and that none of the reports that we have been reading should ever have any foundation, although we believe that some may be exaggerated.

§ Lord Ennals
My Lords, is the Minister aware that some of us would warmly welcome her reference to taking every opportunity, but does she accept that during the past year Britain has now become the 180 largest arms supplier to Indonesia? Does not the question of approval for arms exports arise? Is it not appalling that at a time when the Government are apparently using their influence we are gaining from arms supplies to Indonesia when, as she has herself admitted, torture is continuing in that country, which is in any case occupied by Indonesia illegally?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I did not admit that there is torture. I could not do so because I do not have correct information any more than anyone else has. I also believe that some newspaper reports have been exaggerated, but I do not say that they all have. So far as concerns military expenditure, let me say this. Every nation is entitled to defend itself but we do not export arms to a country where we believe they will be used for internal repression.

§ Lord Judd
My Lords, does the noble Baroness not understand that there is a problem of credibility on this issue? We do not doubt her sincerity of intention, but how does she use the aid programme to bring effective pressure to bear? In Indonesia 2,000 political prisoners are languishing in prison for their religious and political beliefs. Some have been there under sentence of death since 1965. How has she used the aid programme to bring pressure to bear to bring justice to those people?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has taken every opportunity he has had to make quite clear to the Foreign Minister of Indonesia our complete rejection of the way in which they have dealt with political opponents in Indonesia, be it in East Timor or anywhere else. The Indonesian action against the military personnel involved in the Dili incident was unprecedented. We have made it absolutely clear that all those issues must be dealt with by the Indonesian authorities and we shall continue to do so at every level of government.

§ Lord Judd
My Lords, will the noble Baroness please explain what she means when she says that she assesses the human rights record of a country when deciding what the aid programme should be?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, one has to consider whether there has been any improvement, no improvement or a worsening of the situation. While I fully accept that noble Lords, together with many of my noble friends on this side of the House, believe that the situation is still very grave, it is somewhat better than it has been. We continue on every occasion—in consultative groups and all the multilateral agencies, as well as on our own account bilaterally—to make quite clear that if that improvement does not continue and if people who are held without trial are not released there will need to be a change.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, British aid is important, but does the Minister recognise that the pressures on governments receiving aid would be much more significant if the views she expresses were shared by some of our European allies? May I have an assurance that when pressure is brought to bear on 181 some of those countries it can be done with other donors in the European Community who make a much larger contribution to aid than we do?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, Britain was the fifth largest bilateral aid donor in 1991. But the noble Lord is absolutely right to say that combined pressure from all donors, not limited solely to the European Community but other major donors too, is just as important. Indeed, we promoted a resolution in the European Development Council over a year ago urging that every country in the Community should take such steps. Our partners in the OECD Donor Assistance Committee have taken similar steps.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, is it too much to hope or dream that governments who are responsible for breaches of human rights will be brought before a world court?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I do not know about a world court. I know that there is a good deal more honesty in 1992 about what is going on in terms of breaches of human rights than there was even five years ago. All donors are quite determined that people should be brought before the law and—what is always asked for—if a government of a sovereign country arrests somebody, that that person must be charged and brought before their own courts. If that is not done, further steps must be considered by the United Nations.

§ Lord Prentice
My Lords, the terms of the original Question go much wider than Indonesia. Will my noble friend confirm that her policy and the policy of other aid donors are having practical effect in some parts of Africa, particularly in Malawi?

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that question. We have begun to see a change in the attitude of many countries. The very fact that the Government of Malawi are to hold a referendum on their one-party system is an indication that they, like others in Africa, see the need to address human rights issues and to address the whole issue of democracy and good government. We are giving good support for those who follow a policy of democracy and good government.