HL Deb 28 November 1991 vol 532 cc1397-400

3.1 p.m.

Lord Bethell asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether there should be democratic control over decisions reached by the 12 European Community Governments on police co-operation, immigration and asylum; and, if so, whether, in their view, such control should be exercised by national parliaments, or the European Parliament, or both.

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)

My Lords, the governments of the Twelve are individually accountable to their respective national parliaments for any joint decisions which they take. Her Majesty's Government believe that democratic control over actions in these important areas should be primarily by national parliaments.

Lord Bethell

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. Does he agree with me, however, that it is not really enough to have important decisions on asylum, police co-operation and immigration merely cornmunicated to national parliaments or to the European Parliament in the form of an Answer to a Written Question'? Should they not be put before the parliaments before the decision is taken so that national parliaments or the European Parliament can make their views known and influence the decision?

Will my noble friend examine the procedure whereby at present information is merely provided to national parliaments? Will he see whether members of national parliaments or of the European Parliament may participate?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I am quite prepared to examine the procedures. However, the fundamental point is that there are important individual aspects bearing upon subjects such as asylum policy, immigration policy and the combating of drug addiction within each country. We believe that it is right to co-operate with our European partners, but not right to extend the Community competence into those areas.

Lord Richard

My Lords, is the Minister aware that there is some disquiet about the way in which decisions are taken at Community level? As the Minister knows, there are two groups, the Schengen Group, of which Britain is not a member, and the Trevi Group, of which it is? I am sure that the Minister is aware that policy emerges from meetings of those groups.

Can the Minister go so far as to agree with me that in relation to these sensitive areas of national policy, at the moment it is almost impossible to discover precisely what the various countries in Europe are co-ordinating and co-operating about? As the noble Lord, Lord Bethell, said, it is not good enough for decisions merely to be announced at a late stage when no one has a chance to consider them in advance.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, the draft treaty identifies a range of interior and justice issues as being of common interest within the 12 member states. They include such matters as combating drug addiction, asylum policy and immigration policy, combating fraud and so on. The interior and justice ministers of the Twelve will remain accountable to their national parliaments for the work on decisions which are taken jointly in those areas. There will be co-operation between them but in the end it is the national parliaments who have the responsibility.

Lord Monson

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware of a news item in yesterday's Daily Telegraph which reported that Chancellor Kohl is urging the formation of a joint European police force to operate after 1994? Would this mean, for example, that after that date the CRS may be flown over from France to deal with demonstrations and similar events in the United Kingdom?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, the noble Lord has allowed his imagination to run away with him. Europol is a proposal for a European police office which would encourage and facilitate the exchange of police and criminal information and experience. It would analyse such information for use by member states. Her Majesty's Government support it but we do not want Europol to have a supranational power of enforcement.

Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the operational control of police forces in this country is different from that of many of our European neighbours? The operational control of the various police forces scattered about the country by an international body would present considerable constitutional and practical difficulties.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I entirely agree with my noble and learned friend. The operational control of police forces in this country is different from that in other countries. Police forces in other countries differ from each other in their operational control. That is why we do not seek supranational control. We want full co-operation between the police forces of all the 12 members.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the distinction which he firmly draws between national competence and Community competence in this regard is a source of great comfort to many of us on all sides?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I always like to think that I am a source of great comfort to noble Lords on all sides.

Lord Renton

My Lords, would Europol be a branch of Interpol or a rival to it?

Earl Ferrers

Neither, my Lords. It would be different from it.

Lord Morris

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that over the decades Parliament has, by means of a whole series of enabling measures in this field, given power to the Executive to look to these matters itself? It would not be practical to come back to Parliament to remove those powers which it has already granted to the Executive.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, basically I agree with my noble friend.

Lord Mackie of Benshie

My Lords, perhaps I may return to the Question. Can the Minister say what plans the Government have, whether or not in co-operation with the rest of Europe, to separate the genuine asylum seeker from what one might call the economic immigrant? That is the great problem that faces us. All countries in Europe, or all the ones of which I know, have signed the 1951 Geneva convention on asylum, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to apply it. Genuine co-operation may enable steps to be taken which would identify genuine asylum seekers before they come to this country.

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, the whole matter of immigration in the Community is of great importance. It is necessary that we should work with our partners on border controls with a view to achieving a uniformly effective external frontier. The external frontiers convention is a step in this direction. There are other areas of immigration policy in which the harmonisation and exchange of information and experience will be valuable. We all face problems over immigration and asylum applications and we need to work together. The Dublin convention on the handling of multiple asylum applications is an example of the progress that is being made. The United Kingdom must retain control of its immigration and asylum policies. There is no question of conceding Community competence over that.

Lord Stoddart of Swindon

My Lords, the Minister gave an assurance to the noble Lord, Lord Monson, that there is no question of European police coming over here to deal with riots and other such matters. Will the Minister give a similar assurance that no undercover operations will be undertaken by Europol in this country?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I have tried to explain that Europol is a proposed European police office. It does not concern undercover agents working surreptitiously in other countries.

Lord Jenkins of Putney

My Lords, does the noble Earl not agree that where European policies differ from national policies, they differ from them and not to them?

Earl Ferrers

My Lords, I think I understand the point the noble Lord is making. Is he making the point that I was grammatically incorrect? If that is the case, I bow to his superior intellectual intelligence.