Remand Prisoners (Hansard, 25 November 1991)

Viscount Astor
My Lords, today there were 1,631 prisoners held in police cells who should properly have been held in prison. Of those five were female.
Prison Service chaplains visit prisoners in police cells and encourage local ministers to make visits.

§ The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that Answer. Is he aware of the intolerable strain that is being placed on the police force by the number of prisoners being held in police cells? Last May the figure was 516, so the number has almost trebled.
One of the major police forces in my area has asked me to bring this matter to your Lordships' notice. The police are constantly losing days off in order to cope with the problem. The strain has reached such proportions that they feel that radical action must be taken soon. Will it be possible to act to ensure access to prisoners by ministers of religion? It is not happening in all cases. In fact the situation is patchy. In some places it is possible for ministers of religion to get access to police cells when they are requested to go; in others it is not. In London the only way in which it is possible is for ministers of religion to register as lay visitors; and then they can ask only about the cleanliness and hygiene of the cells and the conditions under which prisoners are kept. They cannot minister to the soul. Will he also consider—

Noble Lords
Too long!

§ The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, I apologise to noble Lords for not knowing the courtesies of the House. Perhaps I may ask one further question. Will the noble Viscount consider the use of army camps, as the police themselves have suggested, which would allow less squalid conditions, fresh air and the visitation of relatives and ministers of religion?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, I must pay tribute to the most valuable work carried out by the prison service chaplains in very difficult circumstances. There are 119 full-time and 254 part-time chaplains. As the arrangements for helping prisoners in police cells are informal, my noble friend the Minister of State has now asked officials to consider how best to ensure that all prisoners in police cells have access to ministers of religion. We shall also be issuing guidance in this respect.
In regard to the other points made by the right reverend Prelate, we feel that military camps are a last resort. They are not particularly useful for remand prisoners. They are, perhaps, not safe enough. On the subject of the police, liaison governors are available seven days a week to provide advice to the police on all aspects of treatment of prisoners in police cells.

§ Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge
My Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that any man or woman who is arrested and awaiting trial in custody is entitled to proper access to a lawyer, a doctor and a priest? Is he also aware that the right reverend Prelate is perfectly right in what he said? All of us have heard of instances where, under this lamentable system of pushing remand prisoners into police cells, it is made almost impossible for any of these things to be properly done. 1142 Perhaps the the noble Viscount should agree with the suggestion regarding the use of military camps. My noble friend Lord Cocks, who sits next to me, said in the police debate last week that that was a proper solution. Moreover, in 1980, my noble friend Lord Hutchinson made a similar suggestion. However, the situation has been allowed to continue for 11 years. Is the noble Viscount perhaps now of the opinion that the present practice should be discontinued and that it should do so as the result of real action by the Government?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, the police do their very best to ensure that prisoners in police cells are able to receive visits from solicitors, doctors, ministers of religion and their relations. Indeed, they do a very good job in difficult circumstances. Prisoners have been held in police cells on and off for a number of years. Hence the importance of building and refurbishing prisons. We very much hope that the new accommodation to come on course during 1992 will have a major impact on the number of prisoners held in police cells.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, is not the present situation exacerbated by the fact that Strangeways is still only partly in use? Further, can the Minister tell the House whether the completion date for the rebuilt Strangeways prison will be on schedule? When the rebuilding is complete, will that not go a long way towards resolving the situation?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, I cannot tell the noble Lord the exact date when the work at Strangeways will be completed. Of course, there are many reasons for prisoners being held in police cells. For example, we lost accommodation in the 1990 disturbances and also a significant amount of accommodation is temporarily out of use as a result of refurbishment. Further, industrial disputes have also contributed to the problem. However, I am pleased to say that disputes at Pentonville and Cardiff are now resolved. Most significantly, there has been a serious surge in the size of the prison population; it is now nearly 3,000 above the level expected for this time of year.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, in view of the very high number of remand prisoners held in police cells announced by the Minister today, can he tell the House what progress and provision have been made to increase the number of bail hostels? Can he also say how many places there are in bail hostels at present which would enable visits to be made by ministers of religion as well as relatives?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, I should point out that that is slightly wide of the Question which appears on the Order Paper. Those figures are not available today.

§ Lord Allen of Abbeydale
My Lords, am I right in thinking that the figures which the noble Viscount gave are limited to England and Wales, in accordance with normal Home Office practice? Further, can he say whether this problem arises in Scotland?

Viscount Astor
My Lords, I have to say that I do not have the answer to the latter question. However, I suspect that to some degree it does.

§ Lord Cocks of Hartcliffe
My Lords, the Minister said that the use of army camps would be the last resort. Do the Government realise that the situation is now serious and that last-resort measures are required? Any new provision of prison places will be more than mopped up by the increase in offenders. So far as security is concerned, when I was in the Royal Navy land-based establishments were extremely secure. Perhaps standards are lower in the other services.

Viscount Astor
My Lords, army camps are built with fences to keep people out, not to keep people in. That is the difference. It is a serious problem. The Government are spending a large amount of money on the prison service to do all that is necessary to enable prisons to accommodate more prisoners.