HL Deb 25 November 1991 vol 532 cc1146-8

2.58 p.m.

Baroness Ewart-Biggs asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether they will raise the issue of East Timor with the United Nations Security Council, and whether they will make urgent representations to the Indonesian Government in relation to their treatment of the East Timor people.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (The Earl of Caithness)

My Lords, representations were made to the Indonesian Ambassador on 13th November, and the European Community issued a statement the same day on recent incidents in East Timor. There are no plans to raise that issue with the UN Secretary-General.

Baroness Ewart-Biggs

My Lords, universal horror has been expressed at national and international level at the murder of innocent mourners at Dili. That incident is in line with a succession of brutalities committed by the Indonesians in East Timor since the illegal occupation in 1975. Will the Government support the Portuguese Government's proposal for an international, independent investigation? Will the Minister also say whether Her Majesty's Government will continue to trade arms to this brutal and repressive regime?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, we believe that the best policy is the one which we are pursuing and that is to support the United Nations Secretary-General in his efforts to encourage Indonesia and Portugal to resolve their differences. We wish to see how the commission of inquiry which the Indonesian Government have set up develops. I also say to the noble Baroness that we understand clearly and are horrified by what has happened in the past. But our paramount concern is to deter any repetition in the future.

The Earl of Selkirk

My Lords, has Indonesia, either by law or history, the slightest claim to the lands of Timor?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I am sorry, I missed the first part of my noble friend's question because other people were speaking.

The Earl of Selkirk

My Lords, I repeat: does the noble Earl agree that the Indonesians have no claim either at law or through history to the lands of Timor?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I confirm that we have not recognised the incorporation of East Timor into Indonesia, de jure. But I must point out to the House that, among others, the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand have done so.

Lord Ennals

My Lords, may we have an adequate answer to the question which has already been put from both sides of the House? Does the Minister agree that Britain has become one of the principal suppliers of arms since the invasion took place in 1975? It is intolerable that we are now in a sense conniving at the terrible events that have occurred in East Timor. Will the Government take a firmer position than they have so far taken?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I certainly dispute the first point raised by the noble Lord about the answers that I have given. As he will be fully aware, all countries have a sovereign right under the United Nations charter to secure the means of their own defence. Applications to export British defence equipment are carefully scrutinised on a case by case basis. It is important to remember that we do not allow the export of arms and equipment likely to be used for repressive purposes against civil populations.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that while the Indonesian Government masquerade as a democracy, we read in all our substantial newspapers of the appalling, horrible crimes being committed in the name of democracy? When one examines it in detail, the crimes make Pol Pot look like a disillusioned boy scout. While we are discussing the subject this afternoon, probably 30 to 40 people during every hour for the next six months will be destroyed or brutally murdered by one of the most horrendous governments on earth.

The Earl of Caithness, My Lords, if the noble Lord can justify his figures, I shall have a look at them.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that last week Stephen Cox, the photographer who was present in Dili during the massacre of 12th November, was in this House and met some of us? Has he met representatives of the Foreign Office? If so, what action will the Foreign Office take about the assaults to which he was subjected over a period of two to three hours when he was confined to a cellar during the massacre? Following that, he was assaulted by the Indonesian defence forces.

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, Stephen Cox has not asked to see me but I can assure the noble Lord that I discussed all questions of human rights with the Indonesian Ambassador on 13th November. During my visit to Indonesia in May I discussed the subject with five different people.

Lord Rea

My Lords, as my noble friend Lady Ewart-Biggs said, this is only the end of a long line of terrible atrocities against the people of East Timor. I visited that country in 1989 as a member of an IPU delegation. In view of the latest atrocity, is it not time for Her Majesty's Government to take a more active role through the Security Council by imposing sanctions if necessary on, in particular, as other noble Lords have said, the sale of arms to Indonesia? Such action would be taken in order to persuade the Indonesians to comply with the two United Nations resolutions, Resolutions Nos. 384 and 389, which require Indonesia to withdraw its forces from East Timor, pending a plebiscite under international supervision to determine that country's future.

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I seriously contest the allegation that the Government have done nothing. If the noble Lord has listened to me, he will have heard me say that we took action immediately, the following day, with our European partners. As I have already said in a previous answer, we fully support the United Nations Secretary-General in his efforts to try to get Portugal and Indonesia to resolve their differences.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, will the noble Earl answer my question? What action is the Foreign Office taking in view of the assault on a British citizen?

Lord Gridley

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether there are other nations in that area, including Malaysia and Australia, who belong to the South East Asia Treaty Organisation, who have every conceivable interest in what is going on? Of course, Her Majesty's Government have to take the interests of those parties into account.

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend's question. All of us take a great interest in what is going on in Indonesia and we are appalled and horrified by the actions that took place on 12th November. My noble friend is quite right in saying that Australia recognises the incorporation of East Timor into Indonesia. It is an important country and we should take note of its views.

Lord Hatch of Lusby

My Lords, will the noble Earl now answer my question? What action are the Foreign Office and the Government taking in view of the deliberate assaults made on a British citizen, Stephen Cox, on 12th November in Dili?

The Earl of Caithness

My Lords, I have already answered that question: I said that I had spoken to the Indonesian Ambassador about it.