Polish Citizens Visas (Hansard, 13 November 1991)

The Minister of State, Home Office (Earl Ferrers)
My Lords, it would not be prudent to abolish visas while our embassy in Warsaw continues to receive very large numbers of applications from Polish nationals who do not meet the requirements which are prescribed in the immigration rules.

§ Baroness Cox
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply which will give little encouragement to the Polish people. Is he aware that Britain's present restrictive policy is not only deeply hurtful to the Polish people but is hampering important developments in trade, academic, scientific and cultural activities, town twinning projects and even family reunions? Does he appreciate that the Poles are especially offended by the fact that we have lifted restrictions for countries such as Czechoslovakia and Hungary and that other European countries have lifted restrictions for Poland? Does he agree that this is a very unfortunate way to treat a nation to whom we owe so very much?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, my noble friend makes a number of very valid points. I concur with what she said about how much we owe to the Poles, but the fact is that many more people apply for visas than can be accommodated. In fact, 57,000 were admitted in 1990, which is more than from other Eastern European countries. It is perfectly true that we abolished the visa requirements for Czechoslovakia and Hungary but in 1989 our embassies in Prague and Budapest had refused only 20 visa applications compared with 4,400 in Warsaw. I emphasise to my noble friend that the purpose of the visas is to avoid having people come to this country and being turned away. However, we allow in a very great many of them.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, can the Minister say what are the criteria that Her Majesty's Government apply before visa regulations are lifted?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, we keep the matter under constant review in order to see whether the visa requirement continues to be necessary. While there are so many people applying in Warsaw to come to this country, to remove the requirement would merely mean that, having first secured a ticket, they come here and are turned away at the ports.

§ The Earl of Lauderdale
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that although immigration officers work under great strain, yet act with much skill and always use great sympathy, there is a special worry on the part of those of us who know Poland? We became involved in the Second World War on account of that country.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I understand my noble friend's point. I can only repeat that 57,000 Poles were admitted in 1990, which is more than from any other country. However, we cannot allow everyone who wishes to come into this country to do so. A report stating that 50,000 Poles crossed the border on the day that Germany abolished visas is an indication of the pressures that exist.

Baroness Ryder of Warsaw
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the foundation which bears my name has over many years invited to Britain more than 5,600 Poles—many of them survivors of the Nazi and Soviet concentration camps—and their children, yet only 17 are known to have remained here? Is he further aware of the disgraceful picture of Poles queuing for hours outside the British consulate in Warsaw, often without food or sleeping space? Does he realise that they are then often quizzed by, sadly, impertinent British personnel who happen to care little about their conditions and circumstances? How much longer must this situation be tolerated when East Germans and others, some with sinister backgrounds, come to this country whenever they wish?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I find it difficult to accept the whole of the last part of the noble Baroness's question about people coming over from East Germany whenever they wish. However, I know only too well the valiant work which the noble Baroness, Lady Ryder, does on behalf of the Poles and of her enormous interest. It is good that she has invited so many people and that they have come here successfully. The fact that only a few have remained is irrelevant to the original purpose of visas, which is to ensure that only those who are entitled to come to this country will enter and not those who are not so entitled.
With regard to the complaints that the noble Baroness made about Warsaw, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office have made strenuous efforts to avoid the queues which arose in Warsaw last year. Procedural staff office layout changes have been made, and a same day service is now provided for most visa 557 applicants. Cramped visa accommodation remains a constraint and our embassy officials are making efforts to improve it.

§ Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, are the visas for visits or for permanent residence? If what is sought are family visits, in view of our historical relationship with Poland during the last war would it not be right to make a derogation from general policy in favour of Poland?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I have great sympathy with what my noble friend says. Of course the visa requirements are to ensure that only those who are entitled to do so will come to this country and will not be turned away. It is not just a question of removing the requirements in order to be kind to Poland because all that will happen is that we shall have an influx of people which this country cannot accommodate. Therefore, it is necessary to keep a firm control on immigration.
I repeat the fact—I believe that it is for the third time —that 57,000 people were admitted in 1990. That was more than for any other East European country.

§ Baroness Ewart-Biggs
My Lords, in view of the fact that Germany, France, Italy and the Benelux countries have all withdrawn their visa restrictions on Polish visitors, cannot the Minister give a better reason than that we still do not find it prudent to abolish visas?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I do not know how I can give a better reason than that which I have given already to the House: that is, that far more people apply to come here than we can accommodate and we need to have those visa requirements. I agree that many European Community member states do not have such visas, but they have long land borders and, more than we do, depend more heavily on post-entry immigration control.

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, as the issue of Germany has been raised, has the noble Earl compared our experience with that of his opposite number in France? France does not have a common border. It has an indigenous population with Polish connections. It has long historical ties with Poland. It has no visas. Has France had an embarrassing flood of Polish immigrants?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I am not in a position to answer for France. I can only answer for the principles held by the United Kingdom. In order to keep control of those who come into the country it is necessary to have visas for visitors from certain countries. Where the evidence is that vast numbers are likely to come, then it is necessary for those visas to continue. However, we shall keep the position under review.

§ Lord Bethell
My Lords, has my noble friend detected the strong feeling from all sides of this House on this issue? Will he undertake to discuss the matter again with his right honourable friend the Home Secretary to see whether a satisfactory solution to the problem can be found? Having spent two days in 558 August with those queueing outside the Polish Consulate in Warsaw, I can say that the situation causes great damage to the United Kingdom in Polish public opinion.

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, of course I detect the inference which my noble friend has drawn. I quite understand that your Lordships would like to see the position relaxed. However, the mere fact that there are the vast queues to which my noble friend Lord Bethell and the noble Baroness, Lady Ryder, referred indicates that there are vast numbers of people who wish to come to this country.
I can only repeat that unless we abandon all forms of immigration control it is necessary to keep visa requirements under those circumstances.

§ Lord Thurlow
My Lords, is the noble Earl able to give estimated numbers of those likely to come into this country if the visa requirement were withdrawn?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, that is a somewhat hypothetical question. I cannot estimate how many people would be likely to come in under different conditions. However, 57,000 people were admitted in 1990; 22,000 applications were refused or withdrawn, of which 20,000 were withdrawn by the applicants.

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Waddington)
My Lords, your Lordships may feel that it is time to move on. We have a further three important Questions.