HL Deb 16 May 1991 vol 528 cc1746-8

3.25 p.m.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham asked Her Majesty's Government:

Whether applicants for hackney carriage or private hire vehicle drivers' licences are required to disclose any previous criminal convictions to the licensing authority.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, there is no legal requirement for them to do so. However, district councils which license taxi and private hire vehicle drivers outside London and the Assistant Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, who licenses taxi drivers in London, must satisfy themselves that an applicant is a fit and proper person to hold a licence. The majority of councils and the Assistant Commissioner will require both new applicants and those seeking to renew their licences to declare any past criminal offences.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that Answer. Given that many applicants for hackney carriage licences, and indeed some taxi drivers, have previous convictions for rape, GBH, theft, firearms offences, assaults on children and so forth, and given that the police outside London refused to disclose to the local authorities previous convictions, how does the Minister suggest that local authorities can fulfil their statutory duty to ensure that taxi drivers are fit and proper persons?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I admit that there is a problem; it is that police resources are overstretched in providing the kind of information to which the noble Baroness has referred. In 1990 the police conducted more than half a million checks in connection with those working closely with children. If required to conduct the kind of checks to which the Question refers, a further 30,000 to 40,000 would be added to that. The Home Office Scrutiny Team has recently examined arrangements for the maintenance of, and disclosure from, national criminal records. It may lock again at taxi and public hire vehicle access followi qg the report.

Lord Clinton-Davis

My Lords, is the Minister aware that his argument, short though it was, was replete with inconsistency? On the one hand he argued that it was inappropriate for the police to be given the additional work, while on the other hand he said that the matter was suitable for review? Which is the case? Is the Minister further aware that considerable public anxiety exists because, in pursuing the task of trying to determine whether people are fit and proper persons, district councils are severely hampered? My noble friend Lady Hollis has said that the matter has given rise to a number of extremely serious cases in 40 district councils across the country. When are the Government going to do something about the problem?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, there was no inconsistency in my reply; absolutely none. The noble Lord will discover that when he reads Hansard. The situation is under review. We are anxious that any laws, regulations or systems of access that we might impose are capable of working effectively, and they must have the agreement of the police.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes

My Lords, what will the Government do about the inconsistency of no licensing requirement for private hire minicab vehicles in London?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, approximately 35,000 to 40,000 mini cabs operate in London. At present there is no evidence to indicate that they offer anything other than a safe, convenient element of public transport—

Noble Lords: Oh!

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, the Government are not blind, however, to the anxiety expressed in some quarters. In an effort accurately to gauge the situation the Department of Transport is part funding a research project being carried out by the Suzy Lamplugh Trust on the incidence and perception of serious crime in relation to mini cabs in London.

Baroness David

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the problem has existed for at least 15 years? It certainly existed when I was a member of the licensing committee of Cambridge City Council. I am amazed that it continues and that nothing has been done. Now that we live in the age of computers it should be extremely easy to call up criminal records. If that is done for social workers working with children it should not be so difficult for the police to discover the criminal convictions of potential taxi drivers.

They may not only carry women and children at all hours of the day and night but, if they are carrying luggage, they are able to make a very good examination of premises which are suitable for burglary.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, the noble Baroness says that computers are now coming into play on these matters. I understand that the police national computer is being updated in this respect but that that operation is not yet complete. It may be possible to do something in the future.

Baroness Hollis of Heigham

My Lords, does the Minister not agree that the point of the licence is to protect the public? The licence now signifies that a taxi is a fit and proper taxi but does not signify that the taxi driver is a fit and proper taxi driver.

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, as I said in my original Answer, the licensing authority is required to satisfy itself that an applicant is a fit and proper person to hold a licence, and that is what should be done.

Lord Clinton-Davis

My Lords, will the Minister do something about this as a matter of urgency and not wait interminably for reports to pile up on his table?

Lord Brabazon of Tara

My Lords, I cannot promise to do anything immediately.