The Atomic Weapons Establishment: Policy (Hansard, 14 May 1991)

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, the Government's policy is that nuclear warhead production in the United Kingdom should take place at the Atomic Weapons Establishment and that the land, facilities and other assets of that establishment should be owned by the Secretary of State for Defence. We believe, however, that the establishment would benefit from being operated under contract by a private sector company.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Am I to understand that the contracting out of the production, research and development of nuclear warheads, particularly for Trident submarines, will be to the private sector? Am I further to understand that the Government still consider that the defence of the realm is of total importance and that they will be able to superimpose any contract let out under the circumstances? Am I still further to understand that under the European Community rules any European contractor will be able to bid for a contract to run Aldermaston and Burghfield.

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that the defence of the realm is of vital importance. The contractorisation will mean that we retain all the assets of AWE in the ownership of the Secretary of State for Defence, as I said, but that a private sector company or consortium will be introduced to operate the establishment under contract. In our view no other solution can offer the combination of access to private sector production management expertise and the fullest flexibility to deal with the difficulties which AWE has had in recruiting and retaining staff.

§ Lord Harmar-Nicholls
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the innuendo behind the Question is rather unreal? Is it not a fact that in any monopolies, including government monopolies, it is common form to contract out various parts in order to get supplies as well as obtaining the efficiency on line?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, it is a solution which we believe is the best one in this case.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, does the Minister agree, given that we have to continue to produce weapons of mass destruction, that Ministers should remain fully responsible and fully answerable to Parliament for that activity?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, indeed, that situation will continue.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, since the Government are committed to the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons, does the Minister feel that we should take advantage of this opportunity to cease manufacture of nuclear weapons in this country, whether by private or public means?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, that is a very different question.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that nuclear warheads fall into a quite different category to any other armaments? Secondly, is he aware that there is considerable public disquiet that under the government arrangements those nuclear warheads can now be manufactured privately? Is he not aware that that is an extremely important step to take? Will he give the House an undertaking that private companies who manufacture the warheads and who have them under their control will not be able to sell them abroad?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition about this being a special case. That is one of the reasons why we are not privatising: we believe that the solution of contractorisation is most appropriate in this instance.

§ Lord Mackie of Benshie
My Lords, will the Minister answer the latter part of the question of the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition? Will the firms concerned be able to sell the expertise thus acquired, perhaps abroad?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I am not sure that I can answer that question. It may be a matter that will be dealt with in the contract that will be reached.

§ Lord Tordoff
My Lords, in light of the fact that General Pinochet is coming to this country apparently to buy arms, is that not a question that the Government ought to be able to answer?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, that matter does not arise. General Pinochet is the commander-in-chief of, I believe, a democratic country.

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Lord Reay
However, that point goes wide of the Question on the Order Paper, and does not apply at the present time.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, under the government proposals will it not be possible from 1992 for any European country to bid for and possibly achieve the contract to manage the AWE at any of the four, or perhaps all, of the establishments? Is it 1479 satisfactory that the Germans may be running our nuclear arms industry? How does security come into the situation?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, the most important consideration is that the contractor should meet our stringent security requirements. The most sensible and effective course is to safeguard security through the careful application of security criteria to those companies which tender for the contract. If undesirable foreign interests were to obtain influence over a contracting company, the contract would be terminated and AWE would be run by the MoD until a new contractor could be found.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, what studies have the Government made of the public health and safety record of nuclear weapons manufacture in the United States, which is largely private compared with that in France, where it is almost entirely public? What have been the results of those studies?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, the Ministry of Defence will continue to be responsible for security standards and for carrying out and funding the vetting of AWE staff who will have to meet the same stringent security requirements that apply now. I am informed that they will not be able to sell information abroad.

Noble Lords
Answer the question!

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, the noble Lord may not have heard my question. I inquired not about the security record but the public health record.

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, the noble Lord made a reference to the United States. The United States nuclear weapons plants have been operated as a government-owned, contracted-out system since they were se: up in the 1940s and continue to be operated under that system.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, will the Minister take into consideration a matter that has been considered by the United Nations Security Council: that the most frightening thing that could happen would be terrorist organisations gathering information which enabled them to get hold of nuclear weapons for their terrorist activities?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord is entirely right. I have absolute confidence that the MoD will be able to prevent any such happening.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, will the noble Lord take it from me that we shall oppose this measure root and branch? We believe that the product ion of nuclear warheads is a most sensitive question. The Government have not taken into account matters such as security, vetting and other factors. There are plenty of ways of increasing efficiency at Aldermaston and Burghfield without resorting to this rather ridiculous contraction. Does the noble Lord also accept that we shall oppose anything in the contract which allows foreigners to manufacture our nuclear warheads?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I am sure that my noble friend Lord Arran looks forward to the debate on a 1480 Bill later in the week. I am sure that he will be able to satisfy any of the concerns of reasonable people in this matter.