South Africa (Hansard, 26 March 1991)

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (The Earl of Caithness)
My Lords, we maintain full and regular contact with all sides in South Africa. We are urging all parties to open negotiations on a new constitution. We are helping to build a post-apartheid South Africa through our aid programme. In addition, we believe, as do our European Community partners, that sanctions should be progressively lifted, both to encourage reform and to help restore growth to the South African economy, so that all South Africans may see the benefits of a peaceful transition to a non-racial democracy.

§ Lord Hylton
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for his encouraging reply. As a preliminary to constitutional progress, could he be more specific in regard to the Government's policy towards accountability within the South African security forces, especially with regard to shootings, and also in regard to the abolition of single sex workers' hostels?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the accountability of the security forces is a matter for the South African Government. I assure the noble Lord that we regard the violence taking place in South Africa as reprehensible and hope that it will cease as soon as possible. Single sex workers' hostels are a by-product of the apartheid regime and we hope that when apartheid goes they will go too.

§ The Earl of Kimberley
My Lords, would my noble friend agree that it would be very good if we could begin playing cricket, football and other such sports again with South Africa?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, indeed. I believe that all sporting links with South Africa should be reopened and welcomed. I was delighted to hear on the radio a report by the Olympic Committee which is at the moment in South Africa.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, while we welcome the initiatives taken by President de Klerk and the improved situation, would the noble Earl agree that an immense amount of work remains to be done in South Africa before any major amendment of sanctions takes place? In view of the historical relationship that exists between this country and South Africa, could the Minister say what steps Her Majesty's Government are taking to speak to representatives of the South African Government in order that some progress may be made? Those talks could include Chief Buthelezi and Mr. Mandela.

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition is absolutely right that an immense amount of work remains to be done. We seek to encourage all parties in South Africa to settle their differences so that progress may be made. That touches on the second point raised by the noble Lord. We welcome discussions between Chief Buthelezi and Mr. Mandela. We try to keep in touch with all parties in South Africa in order to help progress.

§ Lord Walston
My Lords, will the noble Earl agree that one of the most crying needs in South Africa is for an improvement in housing conditions for vast millions of mainly black inhabitants, particularly in the townships? Can the noble Earl say what, if anything, Her Majesty's Government are proposing to do to help the housing situation both now and once sanctions are lifted?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am aware that the noble Lord has recently returned from South Africa and is able to give the House a first-hand account of the position. I am glad that he has seen a substantial improvement in the housing situation. We have contributed£500,000 to the Urban Foundation's home guarantee scheme which is designed to stimulate the building of low-cost housing.

§ Lord St. John of Bletso
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the process of peaceful change in South Africa has been substantially accelerated of late by the accord on 2nd February between the ANC and the South African Government on the release of political prisoners, the return of exiles and the resolve on the armed struggle by the ANC? If there is to be any chance of a constitutional resolve working in South Africa, there must be economic growth. Does the Minister further agree that to that end there needs to be an easing of economic sanctions against that country?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I concur with the noble Lord in that we welcome the agreement on the repatriation, return and settlement of exiles. I also welcome the announcement made on 21st March of the UNHCR's involvement. We look forward to seeing the details. The noble Lord is absolutely right to focus on sanctions. It is important for the South African economy and all of South Africa that sanctions should be progressively lifted.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, can the noble Earl say whether the Government are yet in a position to make a statement on the future of economic sanctions? The 949 noble Lord, Lord St.John of Bletso, raises an important point. Are we yet at the stage where we can talk more generally and publicly about sanctions and the future of the South African economy or is it still too early in view of the fact that clearly democracy has not yet emerged in South Africa, although we all hope that it will?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, this is not only a matter for the United Kingdom but for other countries as well, particularly the other EC countries and America. We have lifted the voluntary ban on new investment in South Africa. We have also lifted the voluntary ban on the promotion of tourism to South Africa. We have in addition lifted the ban on certain new investment in South Africa. The Commission is drafting legislation to remove the ban on imports of certain South African iron and steel and of certain South African gold coins.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, perhaps I may return to my main point. Will the Minister confirm that I am right in saying that the black population of South Africa is still not enfranchised? In those circumstances does he agree that we have to consider what is happening on that issue before economic sanctions can be totally lifted?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, the noble Lord is right to say that the black population has not been enfranchised. However, it is right to boost the economy of South Africa because that benefits all South Africans.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, is the noble Earl prepared to tell the House on behalf of Her Majesty's Government that they consider apartheid will not have been removed from South Africa until the majority of the population has constitutional political rights, particularly in view of the fact that it was the British Parliament which initially provided the constitution under which political rights were denied to the majority and political apartheid was introduced?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, we are encouraging all sides in South Africa to discuss matters. As regards the all-party congress to discuss the modalities of the new constitution, we welcome Mr. Mandela's call on 8th January for all parties to get together. That reaffirms what President de Klerk said last year.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, the point of my question was that, if apartheid is not considered to be abolished until the majority of the population of South Africa has constitutional political rights, does the Minister agree that there can be no question of ending—there is the possibility of modifying—economic sanctions until those political rights are established?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I hope that I do not take it from what the noble Lord has said that he wishes to make it impossible for the black community to prosper through the benefit of lifting sanctions.