Wales: Army Command Structure (Hansard, 25 March 1991)

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, a number of representations have been received, principally in the form of letters from Members of Parliament and local authorities.

§ Lord Morris of Castle Morris
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Earl for that clear and informative reply. Is he not aware that his right honourable friend the Prime Minister recently received a letter signed by every Lord Lieutenant in Wales protesting most vigorously, although with characteristic courtesy, against the proposal to downgrade Wales as a military district? Will the noble Earl tell the House what action the Government propose to take?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, there is no intention of downgrading Wales as a military presence. I must refute that in the strongest possible terms. The whole point of any new operational district structure of our armed forces is to make them operationally effective.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, from the information he has before him, does the noble Earl not agree that feeling in Wales about the reorganisation to which he referred is quite clear and very strong? To carry out that reorganisation and to leave the army in Wales in a position subordinate to its present position would be offensive to Wales and offensive to those Welsh soldiers who flew the red dragon on their tanks in the Gulf. It would also be very damaging to recruitment in Wales. Has the Minister's right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales been consulted as to his views on the matter?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales has indeed been consulted as has the Ministry of Defence. However, I must make clear to the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition that of paramount importance is the operational effectiveness of Her Majesty's armed forces.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, can the noble Earl explain the operational effectiveness which may be damaged by the maintenance of Wales as a military region? What estimates have the Government made of the manpower and financial savings arising from the change? Is he aware that they will have to be substantial to satisfy the noble Lord, Lord Cledwyn, and the majority of Welsh people?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, jumps to a conclusion about change. No change has yet been announced although a decision is close. However, I repeat that operational effectiveness is designed by the Ministry of Defence in line with the district commanders in order to see that Her Majesty's armed forces are operationally able to take account of any situation which may arise, in particular the defence of the United Kingdom.

§ Lord Parry
My Lords, will the noble Earl admit the peculiar irony of the fact that yesterday the United States of America recognised Lieutenant-General Sir Peter de la Billiere, who recently served as General Officer Commanding Wales, for the great soldier that he is? Will the noble Earl also bear in mind during the negotiations with the Secretary of State that at the moment real hardship exists in Wales as the result of earlier defence retrenchment? The closing down of defence establishments around Wales is causing unemployment. If it were proposed that the military establishment at Brecon be moved elsewhere, that would only add to the problems of the Principality.

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, Wales is part of the United Kingdom. If it should be thought that there is a continuing downgrading of Wales I ask the noble Lord, Lord Parry, to look at the position more closely. That is far from the truth. The noble Lord, Lord Parry, mentioned General Sir Peter de la Billiere. He was GOC for the Welsh district at some point. He did a good job there. He has done a great job on behalf of this country in the Gulf and has been rightly recognised for it.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that for many years the Principality of Wales achieved enormous power and influence in the United Kingdom, in this House, in commerce and practically everywhere? Does the noble Earl believe that our Welsh colleagues now hold ambitions in the military field?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I am sure that the admiration, devotion and love for the Principality of Wales is shared by all in your Lordships' House.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, it is always helpful to have the support of a Scottish peer. Can the noble Earl say why a distinction has been drawn between Scotland and Wales in this matter?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, to the best of my knowledge no distinction has been drawn.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that had it not been for the prowess of the Welsh under the rule of Henry Tudor, Britain as we 842 know it would not exist as a thoroughly united administrative country? It would have achieved neither the commercial nor the industrial strength that it has, nor indeed the military strength. Does the noble Earl recognise that fact? Will he ensure that Wales remains in case England once again needs to be saved from itself?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord on his fine sentiments.

§ Lord Williams of Elvel
My Lords, in answer to my noble friend Lord Cledwyn, the noble Earl said that there was to be no distinction in the treatment of Scotland and Wales. However, is it not the case that Scotland is to remain a military district on its own, whereas Wales is not?

§ The Earl of Arran
My Lords, no announcement has been made and no decision has yet been taken.