Community Charge (Hansard, 21 March 1991)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of the Environment (Baroness Blatch)
My Lords, the percentage of local government expenditure funded by domestic rates in 1978–79 was 16 per cent. The percentage raised from the community charge in 1990–91 is 28 per cent. However, following the announcement in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it is estimated that the corresponding percentage in 1991–92 will be 15 per cent.

§ Lord Jacques
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that Answer. Why have the Government persisted in blaming local authorities for the high rate of poll tax when they very well knew that a major cause was the shift from national taxation to local taxation, coupled with the high cost of collection? Is it not a classic case of being economical with the truth?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I do not agree with the assumption that the major cause of high community charges related to the balance between grant supplied by the Exchequer and by local authorities. The noble Lord totally disregards local authority spending.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, may I, as an inhabitant of wise Wandsworth, which is next door to loony Lambeth, ask whether it is not a little bizarre that we should have heard the supplementary question from the noble Lord opposite?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, it is entirely bizarre. My noble and learned friend underlines the point that the Exchequer support for people in Lambeth is infinitely greater than for people in Wandsworth.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that that may not be so bizarre when one considers Berkshire, where I live? In Reading I 720 pay a charge of £486. Berkshire has a Tory-controlled county council. It seems that something is more deeply wrong than that. Is it not a fact that local authorities have lost almost £20,000 million in revenue over the past 10 years? Is it not clear from that that it is the Government's policy of making local taxpayers pay more and the Government pay less that has caused the problem? Are not the Government now thoroughly ashamed of themselves?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, the noble Lord makes the wrong comparison. There has indeed been a shift, which I have recognised, from national taxation to local taxation. However, he totally disregards the fact that all authorities are treated on the same basis at whatever level that grant is distributed. The discrepancy which has been disregarded by noble Lords opposite is the variation in spending levels between one authority and another.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, is not the truth the fact that demand for local services is not matched by any enthusiasm for paying? Since we are giving our addresses, is my noble friend aware that I live in Southwark and that prudence in expenditure is not always obvious there?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I too share the delight of being a taxpayer in Southwark. Nobody likes paying taxes but the reason why the Government responded in this year's Budget to the issue of volume of money collected at local level was precisely because the financial burden on local charge payers has reached a level which is unacceptable to local people.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that there is growing and grave concern á propos the situation in local government in general? Westminster Council and Wandsworth Council were regarded as the Conservative Party's flagships. However, when people look closely at the flag, they are reminded of the skull and crossbones.

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I am not sure what point the noble Lord makes. However, when one looks at the quality of services in those two authorities, and the cost to their local charge payers, they bear very favourable comparison with many other higher spending local authorities.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, the facts given by the noble Lord, Lord Jacques, in his supplementary question were correct. The Conservative Government inherited a rate support grant of 60 per cent. which was paid to local authorities. Is the noble Baroness aware that the first Secretary of State in the Conservative Government which started these savage cuts was Mr. Michael Heseltine? Is not the measure that will come to your Lordships' House next week -which makes provisions to implement the cut of £140 announced last week by the Chancellor—a result of the appalling situation that developed from the policies of Mr. Michael Heseltine?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, whether the level of grant to local authorities was at 1978 levels or at 1991 levels, it is the variations in spending levels between 721 one authority and another that one has to address when one talks about effective or ineffective local government. It is true, and we have recognised, that the balance has gone too far in the relationship between national and local taxation. That is why my right honourable friend responded very quickly in the Budget to the concern that local people had: that the cost of local services was reaching too high a level.

§ Lord Dean of Beswick
My Lords, it has been calculated that the Government have completely wasted £14 billion on the abortive exercise of a poll tax. They might as well have poured the money down the drain. Will the Minister tell us who will fund that wastage in future? Will the payment fall on the local taxpayers or poll tax payers?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, there will be many opportunities for the noble Lord to continue to make that point. I simply do not agree with him that that money has been entirely wasted.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, comparisons have been made between Southwark and Wandsworth. Will the noble Baroness give the House the assurance that, if a Question is put down, she will provide details—including the methods of calculation and the assumptions upon which they are based—in respect of each of the boroughs concerned?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, with regard to the Question at the Dispatch Box it is not necessary to answer all those questions. If the noble Lord wishes information on the way in which the grant is calculated, I am absolutely certain that he will find it in the Library. If not, I shall be more than pleased to write to him in detail about how the grant is arrived at for Southwark and for Wandsworth.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, will the correspondence which the noble Baroness offers and for which I am extremely grateful contain details, first, of the calculations, and, secondly, the assumptions upon which those calculations are based?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I shall make available to the noble Lord in detail in writing information as to how those figures are arrived at.

§ Lord Strabolgi
My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that in Westminster—which she mentions—the poll tax has come down to £36, and that it will cost £42 to collect? What are the Government doing about that ridiculous situation?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I should like to see a chief executive who admits to a scandalously high figure of £42 for collecting one community charge bill. I hope that the leader of Westminster City Council is listening.

§ Lord Hughes
My Lords, what will be the position in Shetland, where the authority is faced with the possibility of collecting 93p?

§ Baroness Blatch
My Lords, I believe that the people of Shetland will be delighted at having to pay only 93p.