Arms Exports: Safeguards (Hansard, 18 March 1991)

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (The Earl of Caithness)
My Lords, we regularly discuss ways of combating the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction with our partners in the Nuclear Suppliers Group, the Missile Technology Control Regime and the Australia Group, which aims to strengthen export controls on chemical and biological weapons. All applications for licences to export arms from the UK are considered on a case-by-case basis and are subject to rigorous scrutiny.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his reply. Is it possible to devise a system to prevent re-export of such dangerous items to other countries with irresponsible regimes possibly led by megalomaniacs or fanatics?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I can tell my noble friend that licences for the export of defence equipment are not issued unless the Government are satisfied that the customer is acceptable and that the end use will be as stated. In addition, a no-transfer clause may be inserted in contracts, especially government-to-government contracts, to prevent diversion of equipment to third countries.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, can the noble Earl confirm that in a recent NATO committee the United States, supported by Germany, proposed severe restrictions on the sale of arms, specifically to 390 third world countries, and that Her Majesty's Government and France opposed that proposal? Can he say whether that is true and if so why there was such an objection? Secondly, can he say whether the sale of arms was discussed in the Bermuda talks between the Prime Minister and President Bush and whether the British Government made any proposals, especially in view of the fact that it was the sale of arms to Saddam Hussein which was responsible for the Gulf war?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I have to tell the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition that I regret that I do not know the answer to his first question. However, I can assure him that we are discussing the whole question of conventional arms exports with our partners in the Community and in other international fora such as the UN. The priority must be to place a choke on the equipment and technology relevant to weapons of mass destruction. Regarding the export of arms to Iraq, the noble Lord will know that we were asked to supply Hawk aircraft but did not supply them for the reasons I have explained.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, may I assist the noble Earl by telling him that the answer to the first question asked by my noble friend on the Front Bench is, yes? What my noble friend suggested might have taken place took place. In those circumstances will the noble Earl not accept that unless Her Majesty's Government take a more enlightened view on restricting the arms trade, particularly the trade in very dangerous weapons and nuclear components, the threat of nuclear war cannot be lifted but will become worse? Will the Government have another look at the issue?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, as I explained in my original Answer, we take the sale of weapons very seriously. That is why we were one of the founder members of the Nuclear Suppliers Group. We were also closely involved with the Missile Technology Control Regime and the Australia Group.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, to set the record straight, while what the noble Earl said about the sale of aircraft to Iraq is quite true, is it not the case that we trained Iraqi pilots?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I do not know the answer to that question.

§ Lord Kennet
My Lords, can the noble Earl confirm the press stories of yesterday and today that the Prime Minister and President Bush are agreed that the Iraqi Government should be directed to get rid of their chemical weapons? Can he explain in full to the House how that squares with the evident intention of the United States to keep its chemical weapons?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I am sure that the noble Lord will be aware that my right honourable friend the Prime Minister commented on 8th February that through the United Nations we shall seek a commitment from Iraq to destroy under international 391 supervision all its ballistic missiles and weapons of mass destruction and not to acquire further such weapons.

§ Lord Trefgarne
My Lords, while it is certainly right that there should be controls on the sale of weapons and that there may be new controls following the recent conflict, is it not the case that every country is entitled to the right of self defence and that that is enshrined in the United Nations Charter and ought to be preserved?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right. I agree with him.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, does the noble Earl not agree that this very serious matter should be examined in detail in collaboration with our NATO partners and in the Security Council of the United Nations?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, as I said, discussions are taking place in international fora, for example, the UN, but there is further work to be done by all countries.

Lord Bruce of Donington
My Lords, whatever decision is arrived at by Her Majesty's Government on this very important question, will the noble Earl give the House an assurance that that decision will be communicated to the Department of Trade and Industry together with the precise terms under which licences to export may he granted?

The Earl of Caithness
; My Lords, the Department of Trade and industry is, and will continue to be, fully aware of its responsibilities.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, will special vigilance be exercised to control substances which may be used in the manufacture of chemical weapons?

The Earl of Caithness
Indeed, my Lords. That is one of the objectives that we seek to pursue through the Australia Group, particularly with regard to the precursors.

§ Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge
My Lords, when the noble Earl says —as he did twice —that he does not know the answer to the question, do I take it that he will find out the answer and write to the questioner?

The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, I shall certainly write to the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition and put a copy of the letter in the Library.