HL Deb 18 March 1991 vol 527 cc492-509

9.30 p.m.

The Paymaster General (Lord Belstead) rose to move, That the draft order laid before the House on 12th February be approved.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, the draft order has two purposes. The first is to authorise the expenditure of an additional £104.8 million for the current financial year. This brings the total Estimates provision for Northern Ireland departmental services this year to some £4,418 million. The second purpose is to authorise the Vote-on-Account of some £1,941 million for 1991–92. This is based on a standard formula of 45 per cent. of expenditure in the current year which is required to enable the services of Northern Ireland departments to continue until the 1991–92 main estimates are brought before the House later this year.

Perhaps I may give a brief explanation of the main items in the order. The Department of Agriculture's Vote 1 provides for Northern Ireland expenditure on national agriculture. Modest increases are required for capital grants and for hill livestock compensatory allowances. These increases are, however, fully offset by reduced requirements under various capital grant schemes. This results in a token increase of £1,000 in the Vote.

In the Department of Agriculture's Vote 2, covering local support measures, additional provision of some £1.5 million is sought for the disease eradication programme, for special temporary aid to the pig and poultry sectors and for on-going research and development programmes. These increases are fully offset by additional receipts, mainly from timber sales, and by a delay in the commencement of fishery harbour development works. The overall result is a token increase of £1,000 in the Vote.

In the Department of Economic Development's Votes I and 2 token supplementaries of £1,000 are sought where various increases in expenditure are offset by savings elsewhere within the Votes. In Vote 1, which covers industrial support and regeneration, the main increase is an additional £11.5 million for the provision of factory buildings. This reflects the continuing success of the Industrial Development Board in attracting inward investment to Northern Ireland.

In Vote 2, additional net funding of £6.2 million is sought for the Local Enterprise Development Unit —LEDU—Northern Ireland's small business agency. In addition to LEDU's current commitments it will also enable the development of a network of local enterprise agencies to help stimulate community-based job creation initiatives. There are 27 such agencies now operating in the Province, providing work space and business support in their local communities. Some 2,000 jobs are currently supported by the scheme.

Also in this Vote, an additional £0.92 million is sought for the Northern Ireland Tourist Board. This will enable the board to undertake additional marketing activities to promote Northern Ireland as a holiday destination. Just over £0.5 million is also required for capital grants to district councils for the improvement of tourist amenities. A record 1.1 million visitors came to Northern Ireland in 1989 and we expect that the figures for 1990, which are due to be announced shortly, will show a further modest improvement. These additional resources will allow the tourist board to build on this success.

In the Department of the Environment's six Votes, an additional £0.7 million is sought for the department's Vote 2 covering housing and £6.6 million is for the Housing Executive, which brings that body's gross expenditure to the very large figure of some £467 million. This is offset by some £6 million reflecting a downturn in activity by housing associations. Gross housing expenditure in Northern Ireland in the current year is now expected to be about £504 million.

Perhaps I may just select a small amount of the education Vote. An additional £360,000 is being made available for expenditure on grant-maintained integrated schools. Your Lordships will be pleased to hear that Northern Ireland now has 12 integrated schools, 10 of which have so far been granted grant-maintained integrated status. It is welcome news and shows that an increasing number of parents are recognising the benefits which integrated education offers.

In the Education Vote 2 a net increase of £1.9 million is sought for a range of services. That includes grants to the two universities in Northern Ireland to cover expenditure on equipment and a computer network. Provision is also made for an initiative to improve access for disabled people to the arts.

For the Department of Health and Social Services an additional £20 million is sought in Vote 1. That includes some £14.6 million for the health and social services boards, mainly to meet the costs of pay settlements and service development; £7.1 million is required for the family practitioner service to meet additional expenditure arising from the new GP contracts and increased drug costs.

In DHSS Vote 3 an additional £5 million is required. Almost half of that is for health and personal social services. Together with the additional resources in Vote 1 it will help to maintain existing levels of health and personal social services in the Province. Because the figure is so large perhaps I may mention that in Vote 4, covering social security, an additional £50 million is sought, mainly for payments into the Northern Ireland National Insurance Fund and for industrial injuries benefits which are now a charge on the Consolidated Fund under the provisions of the Social Security (Northern Ireland) Order 1990.

Finally, I draw attention to the Department of Finance and Personnel Vote 3, where an additional £0.7 million is sought for the community relations programme. Over the past three years a range of programmes has been developed to promote cross-community contact and appreciation of cultural diversity. Those include programmes by district councils to develop community relations work at local level, a cultural traditions programme and a research programme to increase understanding about the nature of community division and effective ways of improving community relations. That remains one of the Government's highest priorities. Expenditure by the Central Community Relations Unit and the Department of Education has increased rapidly from around £0.5 million in 1986–87 to some £4 million in this financial year.

It is the Government's belief that we are making an important contribution to the creation of a more stable and cohesive society in Northern Ireland by this work. I commend the order to your Lordships. I beg to move.

Moved, That the draft order laid before the House on 12th February he approved.—(Lord Belstead.)

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, we are very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, for drawing our attention to the main features of the Spring Supplementary Estimates. Whenever an appropriation order comes before the House nobody in his right senses can be complacent about the state of the Northern Ireland economy. I do not propose to pursue that topic this evening. It is a matter to which I shall return on another occasion.

The fact that the standard of living has been further depressed during the past 12 months is reflected, for example, in the Department of the Environment's Vote 2, which reveals that the housing associations did not take up around £6 million which had been set aside for loans, to which the Minister referred. We know that there is a great demand for decent homes at affordable rent in Belfast and elsewhere, not least for the homeless.

Not so long ago I was at the offices of the Simon Community in Belfast and was greatly impressed with its very good work. I hope that the department will bear in mind the needs of the homeless in Northern Ireland and the level of support that they can validly give to the Simon Community and similar organisations in the Province.

The votes of the Department of Agriculture are the first referred to in the Estimates booklet and one of the first to be mentioned by the Minister. There is widespread concern about the future of the rural economy in all countries of the United Kingdom.

Agriculture is particularly important for Northern Ireland. As industry sheds further labour in the course of the next few years, it will not be easy to find alternative sources of employment. As outward migration will only intensify the economic and social problems in urban centres such as Belfast and Londonderry, does the Minister believe that it may be possible to get a better deal out of Europe which can help the rural economy of Northern Ireland? Meanwhile, can a little more be done within Northern Ireland to stimulate greater co-ordination, co-operation and partnership between the statutory and voluntary agencies in order to encourage local initiative and enterprise in the rural communities? I appreciate that LEDU is making a very good contribution. If one can encourage greater co-operation between the voluntary and the statutory organisations that will also help.

The Minister said that a very substantial part of the further expenditure authorised by this order will be spent on the health services. I propose to spend a few minutes on this topic. During the past three weeks two strong deputations came to Westminster, both protesting at the hospital reorganisation plans proposed for their districts. It is not often that a deputation comes to Parliament to protest against the closure or reorganisation of the hospital service.

The first deputation came from Coleraine, Ballymoney and Ballycastle Health District to plead for a brand new hospital on a green site to serve its community. The other deputation came to plead for retention of the Moyle Hospital. I did not agree with everything that I heard, but the arrival of these two deputations provides at least a starting point for the examination of aspects of the Northern Board's capital and revenue resources and its consultation procedures.

We were told by members of the deputation that the Northern Board is under-funded both as to revenue and capital when compared with the other Northern Ireland boards. We were told that the revenue under-funding is of the order of £5.5 million per annum at 1988–89 prices. We were also told that the board had received only 6.17 per cent. of the new capital funds since 1970. How do the Government answer that criticism, if it is correct?

It is also claimed that this particular board habitually goes out to consultation on the basis of one solution and not on a range of options. That echoes a similar criticism made by the 26th Report of the Committee of Public Accounts 1989–90 but in a different context. We were told that the Northern Board gives the impression to interested parties that that is the way the reorganisation is to go and that the deed had been done. The consultation is therefore perceived as being just a softening-up process to prepare communities for what is going to hit them.

If it is true that this board, and possibly others, do not consult on the basis of a range of properly-appraised options, we on these Benches urge the department to review the consultation guidelines which it issues to the boards in order to take account of this criticism. One knows that it is always difficult to embark on a policy of closing hospitals consequent on the reorganisation of the service.

But I may suggest to the department that much more could be done by the boards, or even by the department itself, to explain to the general public what is the role of a modern hospital service and what is the role of a community hospital within that structure.

Before leaving health, perhaps I may mention one other matter. We heard much criticism from the deputations—I think it is fair to say that this criticism is not confined to Northern Ireland—that it takes far too long to design and build a new hospital. Nevertheless, some authorities in Britain have shown that the stage of designing a hospital and the process of building one can be substantially accelerated. I wonder whether the Northern Ireland Office is keeping pace with the up-to-date procedures. The fact that both procedures, the design and the building, can be accelerated should lead to a presumption that it should be done. I hope that the department and the boards can be persuaded to review these procedures so that there is no unnecessary time-lag between the decision to build and the hospital opening its doors to its first patients.

At this stage I want to refer to a copy of a letter dated 5th March and addressed to Mr. Richard Needham, who is the Minister in charge of the Department of Economic Development in Northern Ireland. It is signed by about 20 voluntary organisations in Northern Ireland and it urges the Minister to receive a deputation in connection with the proposed reduction of almost 30 per cent. in the grant to be paid to the Community Volunteering Scheme for the year 1991–92. The organisations believe that this proposal will have far-reaching consequences. I am in no position to comment on the merits or demerits of the proposal. I do not know what is the department's case. But I would urge the department to invite the deputations to Stormont in the hope that the difficulties can be resolved.

About a month ago we received the 1990 report of the Northern Ireland Ombudsman. This happens to be the last report of Dr. Maurice Hayes. I should like to take this opportunity on behalf of these Benches to record our appreciation of his excellent work. I note from the report that planning continues to produce a relatively large number of complaints in the Province. That may be understandable, but it has been suggested to me that departmental officials should consider whether any changes could be introduced which might help to reduce the number of complaints against it. The department might like to bear that in mind.

I believe that two of the complaints made against the departments or their agencies are worthy of mention. There is a complaint against LEDU, or it might be against the industrial science division of the Department of the Environment. The complaint is made by a designer of a mechanical engineering tool company. As I understand the summary of the case, it was part of a complaint that somebody somewhere had failed to carry out a thorough patent search in connection with his project. Patent law is a complex and difficult subject and is not well understood by most solicitors or most barristers. Northern Ireland is a good distance from the specialist service of the Patent Bar here in London, and even further away from the European Patent Office in Munich. Nevertheless, it is important that inventors from Northern Ireland should not be left without competent advice in this treacherous field. As a result of that complaint, I trust that LEDU and other organisations are aware of the situation.

The other interesting case is that of the educational psychologist who had no teaching experience and who failed to gain an appointment in Northern Ireland. Notwithstanding her lack of teaching experience, she was professionally qualified under Scottish requirements, but not so qualified according to Northern Ireland requirements. As an EC directive places a duty on member states to facilitate the movement of professional people across boundaries, has the department now issued a clear statement of the position so as to avoid the recurrence of a similar conflict? Those are small points of detail, but they may be of general significance.

I return now to deal with the broader field. Last October the Fair Employment Commission published its first report. Despite the fact that it was able to report some progress—I was especially pleased by the expenditure of just over £1 million on fair employment support schemes in the private sector—such progress is, nevertheless, slow and patchy. Moreover, although Queen's University, which is the recipient of additional funds under the order to which the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, referred, signed the fair employment charter—that is, not last year, not five or 10 years ago but 15 years ago—the fact remains that Catholics are significantly under-represented at that university. The attitude of the district councils in Northern Ireland has been just as disappointing. Despite the fact that successive governments have tried for over 20 years to eradicate discrimination in employment, the first report of the Fair Employment Commission shows once again how difficult it is to move from the past.

I accept, nevertheless, that there are some encouraging signs in the proposals. For example, we very much welcome the increase in the budget of the integrated schools and also of the Community Relations Unit to which the Minister referred. In time, those two significant developments will surely bring their influence to bear in moulding public opinion and thereby ease the task of the fair employment legislation. We agree with the Government that those two developments deserve the highest priority.

Finally, I note that the Community Relations Unit —or, in fact, it may have been the council; I am not quite sure about this—has given a grant to one body which has caused controversy and criticism. For my part, I would not be too severe on the unit on that score. If it gave no grant which caused controversy, it would probably not be doing its job. Nevertheless, publicly financed support ought not to venture into areas of more extreme experiments as that would rightly incur public stricture. I have no further comments to make on this very important order.

Lord Holme of Cheltenham

My Lords, perhaps I may join with the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, in thanking the Minister for his helpful holding of our hands through the explanation of the order. I should also like to associate those of us on these Benches, as there has been no other opportunity to do so, with the tribute that the noble Lord paid to the Northern Ireland Ombudsman.

There are two general and three specific points on the order that I should like to make. The first general point relates to DHSS payments on page 7 of the order. In the light of the fact that no less than 50 per cent. of the supplementary sums granted are for the DHSS in the year ending March 1991, is the Minister satisfied that the provision of £442 million for the coming year is adequate to deal with the steadily increasing level of unemployment in Northern Ireland? As the Minister will be aware, nearly 100,000 people are out of work. The rate is double that of the rest of the United Kingdom. Is that not especially disappointing given that almost 40 per cent. of employment in Northern Ireland is funded directly or indirectly by the Northern Ireland Office? That raises the larger question of the state of the Northern Ireland economy. The most recent CBI survey has shown a sharp drop in confidence, with 54 per cent. of companies in Northern Ireland saying things are worse and only 8 per cent. saying that they are better.

As the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, said, Northern Ireland agriculture is in an acute predicament. Given the high priority that the Secretary of State has rightly assigned to economic progress as one of the main preconditions for controlling terrorism and making political progress, what special measures do the Government propose to take in the coming year to contain the recession in Northern Ireland?

The first of the specific points that I should like to raise relates to page 4, Vote 5, which shows an apparent cut in expenditure on energy efficiency. What is the expenditure on energy efficiency and renewable resources? I notice that the Minister for Economic Development, Mr Needham, claimed credit for the new Antrim wind-powered turbine recently as an example of the Government's commitment to renewable energy. I hope that that commitment is more generally justified by the appropriate budgets than seems to be the case on the figures at which we are looking.

My second specific point relates to page 7, Vote 3, which contains a reference to £713,000 for community relations. That is welcome to the House. Will the Minister further break down the support that is being offered across the board and in the various budgets for voluntary organisations as a whole? That is a point that has already been mentioned in the debate.

I am sure that the Minister will agree that the growth in the number of voluntary and community organisations is essential to the creation of a pluralistic, civil society in Northern Ireland, with fibres strong enough to resist the men of violence and the absolutists. I am sure that, like us on these Benches, he will also welcome the fact that there are signs of growing community and voluntary activity in Northern Ireland, often involving women and often on a cross-community and non-sectarian basis. What do the Government plan to do to help Northern Ireland people to help themselves through their community grants?

My final specific point takes up a matter mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, in relation to Moyle Hospital. I raise it only because it is of acute concern to the people involved. As the noble Lord said, there may well be more than one side to the argument. I have been struck by the fact there is now no emergency centre to deal with the 1.5 million tourists—the noble Lord mentioned the passengers and tourists entering Larne—and they will have to go 35 miles if there is an emergency. With the number of cars coming in and out and the way they are handled, the likelihood of serious accidents occurring must be high and 35 miles seems a long way to travel. Whatever the arguments for and against the Moyle Hospital—and it is something I know the Government are still considering—the case for maintaining an emergency facility seems well nigh unanswerable. This may be slightly outside the terms of the debate, but since we are looking at large expenditures on health it is a question I should like to ask the Minister.

10 p.m.

Lord Dunleath

My Lords, I should like to join in thanking the Minister for the way in which he introduced the order and also for his courtesy in having invited advance notice of points that we might wish to raise. In fact I am not going to raise all the points of which I gave him notice, partly because the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, has kindly made most of my speech for me. In case the noble Lord thinks that I might need to be prompted I am deliberately leaving out some of the things I was going to say.

Under the topic of agriculture we are faced with a big problem. This is not unique to Northern Ireland. It is common to the whole of the United Kingdom. It is the disposal of fallen animals. The position, as I grasp it, is that the rendering plants cannot process fallen animals at the moment because of the risk of BSE. This is a big problem and there is only one solution that I can see from the information that I have been given.

Ulster Farm By-products, which is the main rendering plant in Northern Ireland, should be enabled to set up a completely separate line in a different building to be able to process cattle for fertiliser by-products. Otherwise the rest of the by-products will not be acceptable to the customers. It has been advised to open up for a month on an experimental basis, but I am told that if it does and puts all by-products through the same rendering line it will lose the confidence of its customers, and thus the business would become completely non-viable in the long term. Unless something is done about this, the problem of the disposal of fallen animals is going to become greater and greater.

I am particularly fortunate because I have an area of semi-waste land and I have a digger, so it is not too difficult to dispose of the animals. But that will not last for ever. There is not an indefinite amount of land that can be used for burial. I know of farmers whose land is on rock where the soil is probably only two to three feet deep. They cannot bury their animals. What are they going to do with them? This is not a problem from which Her Majesty's Government can distance themselves. This is a major problem involving not just agriculture but public health and the environment as well. I suggest that both the Department of Agriculture in Northern Ireland and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food in Great Britain must address themselves to this as a matter of urgency.

Turning to the Department of Economic Development, the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, mentioned the volunteer development resource unit and the reduction of its budget from £854,000 to £600,000. That seems to put the future of its efforts to introduce people on a volunteer basis into employment in considerable jeopardy. I hope that due attention will be given to this, because it is voluntary effort on which we rely to a great extent to solve the employment and social problems that we have in a disadvantaged area of the United Kingdom.

On the subject of the Department of the Environment, I venture to ask again why it is that listed buildings are zero rated for VAT as regards alterations but are charged the full rate of 15 per cent. for restoration or repairs. I believe it is group 8a of Schedule 5 of the VAT legislation which offers zero rating for alterations but not for repairs or maintenance.

Four years ago I mentioned the example of a listed building. I was at that time involved in an appeal for the restoration of a cathedral. In one particular year the Historic Buildings and Monuments Commission gave the cathedral £25,000 in grant aid. But then we had to pay £30,000 in value added tax. That does not seem to make sense. It is administratively extravagant apart from anything else. That measure is not in the best interests of preserving our historic buildings as it appears one is encouraged to alter them but discouraged from maintaining and restoring them.

I cannot help wondering why the attitude towards planning seems to have changed in so far as there now appears to be almost a kind of snowfall of bungalows all over the countryside. One of our greatest advantages in Northern Ireland is the unspoilt nature of the countryside; but it now appears that the planners are prepared to allow bungalows to be built anywhere and everywhere. I wonder whether there is any reasoning or thought behind this apparent change of plan.

The noble Lords, Lord Prys-Davies and Lord Holme, have referred to two hospitals. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, is well-briefed on this matter. My appreciation of the matter is that if the Moyle hospital in Larne is deprived of its acute services, people will have to travel a distance of up to 37 miles to the new hospital in Antrim. There is no direct public transport service to that hospital so those who are not lucky enough to own cars will be in real trouble. There is a genuine case for maintaining the acute services in the Moyle hospital at Larne. As regards the other hospital in the Coleraine area, a careful and expensive survey has been carried out. My appreciation of the matter is that £24 million would be required to build a new hospital in addition to the £21 million which has already been earmarked for the upgrading of existing hospital services. To my mind that extra money would not be well spent; it would be money well invested. The report that has been drawn up by Coopers, Lybrand and Deloitte indicates that that would represent the best investment that could be made for the health services in the north-eastern part of the Province.

I gave the Minister notice of the fact that I wished to refer to the Northern Ireland Assembly. Since I wrote to the Minister, his right honourable friend in another place has made an announcement and made a proposal to the various interested parties involved in the discussions that have been taking place. I merely say now that I salute the Secretary of State for his patience in persevering and exercising his best endeavours to try to bring the parties together to indulge in meaningful discussions. If his efforts come to nothing, it will reflect no discredit on him; it will reflect discredit on the politicians in Northern Ireland who are so blinkered and who are so fixed in their views that they can only look backwards and not forwards.

Lord Fitt

My Lords, I rise for only a few minutes to reinforce what has been said by my noble friends Lord Prys-Davies and Lord Holme in relation to the deputation that we met last month in regard to the hospitals at Moyle and Coleraine. Anyone who met those deputations would have been struck by their intelligence, their concern, their sincerity and their total grasp of every aspect of the subject. We talked to them at length. The deputations included doctors and others involved in the medical profession in both hospitals, and particularly in relation to Moyle. They included the Mayor of Lame and others who were also involved in the attempt to keep the acute services at Moyle Hospital.

None of us who do not live in the area could be totally aware of all the emotional reasoning behind the demand for the retention of the acute services. I perhaps better than most in your Lordships' House this evening am aware of the circumstances in Larne, yet I am not acquainted with every aspect. However, I know that the people who went out of their way, at great personal expense, to come here as part of a deputation to meet Members of your Lordships' House and of the other place believe that they have a case.

A point that was alluded to by my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies struck me. The members of the deputation feel that their representations are not being listened to. They feel that they have a genuine case and that the powers that be in the department are not concerned. Indeed, in my discussions with members of the deputation I mentioned that I had received an undertaking from the noble Lord in this House that a deputation would be received by the department at some time in the future and that perhaps a different answer would emerge from that meeting. They then showed me one set of correspondence which appeared to conflict with the original correspondence. It was their estimation that their deputation would be received by the Department of Health but that by that time a decision would have been taken and they would be told the result when they entered into discussions with the department.

That is not the best way to conduct business, particularly in Northern Ireland where representative sections within the community feel that they have a right to make representations and that those representations should be heeded. I hope that in replying to the debate this evening the noble Lord will be able to say that no final decision will be taken in relation to the issues raised by the Moyle action committee until further representations by that action committee have been heard and taken into consideration by the department.

What was said by my noble friend Lord Dunleath concerning the assembly is relevant to that case—and I hope that that possibility of the assembly functioning once again in Northern Ireland becomes a reality. I have no doubt that if there were a representative assembly sitting in Northern Ireland different decisions altogether would have been taken in relation to the two hospitals. The assembly would have had control of affairs and would have been aware of all the aspects. The representatives of those areas would have been involved. From my experience of Stormont over many years I know that there would have been great reluctance on the part of Ministers or the powers that be to push aside representations made by locally elected representatives. If an assembly were in existence we should not have had to discuss the issue of those two hospitals this evening.

I should like to ask the Minister another question. I realise how difficult it is for him to answer. For many years I represented West Belfast. West Belfast was always an area of high unemployment, poverty and social deprivation. It was a Catholic ghetto; it is even more of a Catholic ghetto now. The feeling among the population then (even more so now) was that because they were members of the Catholic minority the powers that be at Stormont (now Westminster) were not terribly anxious to try to attract employment into the area. I know now that that is not true and that the present Government and prior Labour Governments have done everything they possibly can to attract industries into the socially deprived areas of North and West Belfast.

It is from those two areas that the greatest amount of terrorism emanates. In a situation of high unemployment the many hundreds, if not thousands, of young people who have no possibility of jobs are easy prey to various paramilitary and terrorist organisations.

As an MP I remember that many young lads from West and North Belfast—indeed, from all over the city—would come to my advice centre to plead with me to try to get them jobs in Belfast. Although I am now no longer living in Belfast and no longer an elected representative, I get letters from boys and girls living in North and West Belfast asking me whether I can get them jobs in London or anywhere else. They ask me whether there are any jobs available in Kent or Berkshire. There is a feeling of despair that they will never be able to get jobs in the city in which they live. They are prepared to leave home to get jobs and are writing to me, no longer as an elected representative but as someone who either they or their parents knew in the past. I believe that to be a sad state of affairs.

I should like to ask the Minister whether he could indicate if the Department of Economic Development is taking any extra measures to try to create employment in North and West Belfast. Are any special incentives being offered to potential industrialists? Do the Government feel that they are talking to the right community and elected representatives in those areas? I understand why the Government would have great difficulty in talking to Sinn Fein representatives in North and West Belfast, and I would support them in that. I do not believe those representatives are interested in creating employment. But I wonder whether the Government are talking to people other than Sinn Fein or SDLP elected representatives (though there are now not too many of the latter in West Belfast) to see whether they can get to grips with evolving a plan to attract outside industrialists. If they cannot attract investment from Europe or further afield, is there any way in which the Government can engage in industrial development in West Belfast?

I can recall the ill-fated De Lorean project. Though ill-fated, the one thing it proved was that a factory could be built on a greenfield site and a skilled workforce quickly and easily found for it. The failure of the De Lorean project had nothing to do with the people who were working in it. The reasons for its downfall had nothing to do with the people who were working on the shop floor. They were all too anxious to make that industrial project a success. In view of that, it must give the Minister confidence to know that if some means can be found to attract industry there, he will find a ready and willing labour market in particular of young people in those areas.

10.15 pm
Lord Belstead

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords who have taken part in the short debate that we have had on this order. It is an important order to provide for the rest of the expenditure in this year and the beginning of the expenditure in the next financial year. I thank noble Lords for indicating to me in many cases the line of questioning that they would take.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, asked me about homelessness and mentioned in particular the contribution of the Simon Community in Northern Ireland. I assure him that the Government are fully aware of the contribution made by that community in assisting homeless people. I am advised by the chief executive of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, which is the responsible body, that assistance totalling some £76,000 has been made available to the Simon Community during the current financial year.

In a more general question the noble Lord asked whether it was possible to get a better deal out of Europe which would help the rural economy. He referred to the importance of the rural economy particularly to Northern Ireland. I could not agree more fully with him. The problems of the Province have already been acknowledged by the European Community in the award to Northern Ireland in the reform of the Community structural funds of Objective 1 status, which is designed to promote development and structural adjustment. Since Northern Ireland is largely a rural society, that is of obvious benefit to its economy. Perhaps I may just add that in the past the United Kingdom has been successful in negotiating separate arrangements to take account of the special needs of Northern Ireland agriculture so far as concerns the common agricultural policy. We shall certainly continue to seek special and correct treatment for Northern Ireland in appropriate circumstances.

I thank the noble Lord for mentioning the need to encourage local enterprise in the rural community. It gives me the opportunity to draw attention to new structures announced recently by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State to produce the integrated development of the most deprived rural areas of the Province. The Government's objective is to support self-help initiatives combined with a positive and integrated response from the public sector. To that end a rural development council will be established outside government as a source of expert advice and assistance, financial and otherwise, to local groups engaged in the process of regenerating their areas.

All noble Lords have spoken about health. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, mentioned the criticism that the northern board is under-funded. Over the past two financial years the allocation of revenue resources has reflected a deliberate skewing of resources toward the northern board. From 1992–93 all boards will be funded to reflect the needs of their resident populations rather than as in the past an historical pattern based on service provision. I understand the noble Lord's point in the context of capital funding. At the moment three major new acute hospitals are being built in other board areas. That has been a determining factor so far as concerns the allocation of capital resources. The need for an area hospital for the northern board has been recognised and a new hospital at Antrim at a cost of about £45 million is under construction and due to be completed in 1993.

The noble Lord also commented on the consultations undertaken by the northern health board. The strategy drawn up in 1976 for the development of acute hospital services in the Northern Health and Social Services Board area involved the concentration of acute services in a new hospital at Antrim to serve the southern half of the board and the further development of services at Coleraine to serve the northern half. That strategy was the subject of widespread consultation at that time. Nonetheless, all noble Lords in one way or another have mentioned once again the Moyle Hospital. The noble Lord, Lord Holme of Cheltenham, mentioned the need to cater for the people who come into Larne harbour area.

The position remains that any decision will be taken by the board. A commitment has been given that for the time being it will seek to maintain services at present provided at the Moyle Hospital. Final proposals for future services will be subject to the approval of the Department of Health and Social Services. My honourable friend Mr. Hanley, who is the Minister responsible, has given assurance to the action committee that it will be afforded an opportunity to make any representations which it considers appropriate. Perhaps I may say in that context that I listened carefully to what the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, said. I assure your Lordships that the department will continue to listen sympathetically to views expressed before decisions are taken.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, asked whether the department proposes to adopt new design and construction procedures in order to cut down the time lag in building and opening new hospitals. The department constantly evaluates and reviews its strategy for the design and procurement of health facilities. When approval is granted for the building of a new hospital, the department will examine all the design and procurement options to determine the most appropriate to ensure value for money and speed of completion.

The noble Lord also asked whether there is a need in the light of the ombudsman's report for a review of procedures in the planning department to reduce the number of planning complaints. Given that almost 20,000 planning decisions are issued annually in Northern Ireland, it is the department's view that the level of complaints accepted by the ombudsman is not excessive and does not indicate any fundamental problem in the planning procedures.

The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, asked about bungalows being indiscriminately built in the countryside. I thought that the noble Lord may have been a little hard about it. I accept that the more liberal regime that was introduced in 1978 following the Cockcroft recommendations should be reviewed. That is currently under way. The Department of the Environment's revised standards for location siting and design which were introduced in 1987 with the aim of improving the quality of developments in the countryside are already having some effect.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, raised three further points. The first was about patent rights. It is important to state that in the establishment of patent rights it is usual, because of the expense involved, to seek the guidance of a patent agent. Northern Ireland designers have access to agents both locally and on the mainland and therefore have access to first-class product advice.

Secondly, the noble Lord asked about the need to harmonise professional qualifications for education psychologists. Following a broadly based consultation, education and library boards—which are the employers of education psychologists in Northern Ireland—have been informed that the existing requirements, including two years' teaching experience, should stand for new entrants to the profession. However, the boards can also consider applications from qualified candidates with a minimum of five years' relevant employment experience, if they do not have actual teaching experience. The EC directive on the mutual recognition of professional qualifications does not prevent employers from seeking other requirements such as teaching experience or other relevant employment elsewhere.

The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, referred to a reduction in funding by the Government of the community volunteer development resource unit. He asked whether the Minister concerned would consider sympathetically a request for a meeting. I shall indeed draw that request to the attention of the department concerned.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, raised the subject of fair employment. This is an important area and I assure the noble Lord that the Government remain fully committed to ensuring equality of treatment for all the citizens of Northern Ireland.

The noble Lord, Lord Holme, asked what special measures the Government will take to try to contain the recession in relation to Northern Ireland. Although its economy is closely bound up with the national economy and is experiencing considerable recession at the present time, one can draw comfort from the results of a number of recent independent surveys. Taken together they show the economy there being more buoyant than in other regions of the United Kingdom. It is interesting to note that Northern Ireland manufacturing output rose by 17 per cent. in the past three years and that employment in manufacturing rose by more than 1,000 if one compares the figure for September 1990 with that for September 1989.

We recognise that success in markets at home and abroad depends largely on establishing and maintaining a competitive edge. We have tried to give shape and substance to this belief through the launch last year by the Department of Economic Development of its strategy document entitled Competing In The 1990s; The Key To Growth. Within the framework of that new strategy, the Industrial Development Board and the Training and Employment Agency have published more detailed plans. One theme running through those plans is the emphasis on training and education for the present and future workforce in Northern Ireland. We already have a strong educational system there but increased importance is being placed on enhancing our skills portfolio in developing our human infrastructure so that we can meet the challenges of the future.

The noble Lord asked me to give details of expenditure on energy efficiency. The estimates before the House this evening provide for an additional £400,000 in the current financial year. That makes a total of £632,000 for expenditure in this area. That is to expand the publicity programme and grant aid to help the companies identify and implement energy saving measures in Northern Ireland. However, that expenditure is additional to the substantial sums which all areas of the public and private sectors are devoting to cost-effective improvements in energy efficiency. In the case of the public sector, the firm target is a 15 per cent reduction in energy consumption by 1994–95.

The noble Lord, Lord Holme, also asked me to specify the amount being given to support voluntary organisations working for reconciliation in the Province. The sum is £850,000 for the current year. That is being given to assist voluntary groups in their work of promoting increased cross-community contact and co-operation and greater mutual understanding. I agree with the noble Lord that there is a key role for voluntary bodies to play. Any efforts at community reconciliation must have strong local support.

The noble Lord also asked about provision for social security payments given the recent increase in unemployment in Northern Ireland. I assure him that the provision for this financial year, and for the next, will take full account of unemployment rates and those entitled will receive the payments that are due to them.

The noble Lord, Lord Dunleath, spoke about a problem which is in the minds of everyone involved in agriculture in Northern Ireland; namely, the disposal of fallen animals. The reinstatement of rendering would offer the most appropriate solution. However, the agricultural industry must accept financial responsibility for the cost. Discussions are continuing with the rendering plants with a view to their providing at an economic cost a collection and rendering service for fallen stock. Any such service would ensure the separate treatment of material from fallen stock. When the noble Lord said that the Government cannot stand away from the issue, I must point out that the Department of Agriculture and its Minister is standing close to it and are trying to seek a solution to a difficult problem.

The noble Lord asked me about an apparent anomaly, in that the alteration of listed buildings is zero rated while the restoration of them is not zero rated. At this stage of the discussion I simply say that that is a matter for Customs and Excise. Perhaps the noble Lord will have an informal talk with me outside the Chamber and we may be able to pursue that matter.

I thank noble Lords for the speeches which have been made. I deal lastly with a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Fitt. He asked whether I could indicate what measures are taken to attract industry into West Belfast, which the noble Lord knows so well. He specifically asked whether we are talking to the right community leaders and elected representatives.

That is where the initiative called Making Belfast Work is important. In addition to the substantial amount of public funds already being spent annually on programmes for health, housing, education, job creation and the environment, additional funds are provided under that initiative. As a result of increased public expenditure announced by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State last November, the total amount of additional funds in the six-year period 1989–90 to 1993–94 will be £123 million. A major feature of the initiative has been the development of partnerships between government departments and public bodies with bona fide local community organisations, many of which are supported through the work of the Belfast action teams.

In covering that point about talking to the right people, I assure the noble Lord that the major job creation agencies such as the IDB and LEDU are making major efforts in those areas. For example, last year LEDU promoted over 1,000 jobs in the action areas and identified 52,000 square feet of office and industrial floor space for private sector development.

Finally, the Minister responsible in this area, Mr. Needham, spends almost his entire time endeavouring to attract investment from outside. He has just returned from abroad in order to do exactly that. Urged on by the noble Lord, Lord Fitt, we shall continue to do our best. I commend the order to your Lordships.

On Question, Motion agreed to.