Community Charge: Future (Hansard, 14 March 1991)

§ The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Waddington)
My Lords, the Government are carrying out a thorough review of local government functions, structure and finance. We will announce our conclusions soon.

§ Lord Jay
My Lords, as this flagship of the Government's policy has so far produced nothing but confusion, hardship, injustice and huge administrative cost, should not the Government now shake themselves out of their present paralysis of indecision?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, there is no paralysis of indecision. People asked for a thorough review and that is what they are getting. When we are ready to announce our conclusions, we shall do so.

§ The Earl of Onslow
My Lords, as one of those who took a slightly dim view of the community charge when it was introduced, I congratulate my noble and right honourable friends on this review as there is joy at sinners who repent. Furthermore, while the Government are repenting of their actions, it is absolutely right that they should thoroughly assess the position. There is nothing wrong with big people occasionally admitting that they have made mistakes: in fact, it is to their credit.

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, I thought I was going to agree with the second part of my noble friend's remarks. I agreed with nothing in the first part and half of the second. This is not a matter of repentance. People have asked for a thorough review and that is what they are getting. We are learning from experience. I can speak only from experience of my part of the world where profligate spending by Labour local authorities has made the sale of a new form of financing local government much more difficult. That sale would have been a lot easier if those authorities had behaved responsibly.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, will the noble Lord expand on that reply and say who asked for the review? I cannot recall any of us calling for a review. We asked for abolition of the poll tax; that is a different matter altogether. The people of Ribble Valley did not ask for a review; they too asked for abolition. Who asked for a review?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, I cannot speak for the noble Lord, but I know perfectly well that in the autumn of last year people were calling for a thoroughgoing review. Incidentally, when the 291 Government said that they were prepared to carry out a thoroughgoing review, every party apart from the Labour Party said that they were prepared to help in that review.

§ Lord Monson
My Lords, whatever system is brought in to replace the poll tax in its present form, does the noble Lord agree that it is vital that it incorporates some financial disincentive to voting for extravagant and wasteful local authorities? Does he also agree that such a financial disincentive should apply to everyone on the voters' roll and not merely to householders?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, I am sure that the whole House will note what the noble Lord said. I can only repeat that profligate authorities have made it very difficult indeed to convince people that the community charge is the right form of tax. If one looks down the list of authorities and compares the performance of Labour authorities with other authorities throughout the country one finds that the Labour authorities have imposed far higher community charges.

§ Earl Russell
My Lords, have the Government considered the possibility that should they decide to announce the abolition of the community charge, rates of non-payment may regrettably increase? Are they therefore prepared to consider how to ensure that when a new system is introduced charges should not be artificially inflated by a burden of past debt?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, the noble Earl is entirely right that in deciding on a new system one has to have regard to the ease or difficulty of payment. Some very wild statements have been made recently. A statement was made yesterday to the effect that £1.4 billion would be saved if there was a better rate of payment. That sum pales into insignificance when one looks at the additional spending by local authorities in the past year. One would save £38 in community charge if one pushed up the collection rate but one has already lost £61 as a result of additional spending by Labour authorities.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that those who are sincere, and I am sure that we all are, in desiring to reduce unemployment will include among their highest priorities consideration of the fact that local government profligacy is a disincentive to starting new businesses in a particular area?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, my noble and learned friend is entirely right. One has only to look at what has happened in Wandsworth and in Lambeth and compare the community charge in the two authorities. If Wandsworth had received from central government the same amount as has been received in Lambeth, Wandsworth would have given a dividend this year rather than levying a community charge.

§ Lord Palmer
My Lords, why did the Government, having experienced a total disaster in Scotland where 292 3.8 million people did not pay the community charge in the first year of its introduction, still consider it important to introduce it into England and Wales?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, I cannot accept that when the English legislation was introduced it was apparent that the poll tax was a disaster in Scotland. I know that in my own part of the world profligate spending by Labour authorities has made selling the community charge increasingly difficult. I suspect that something similar happened in Scotland.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, as I happen to live in Wandsworth may I ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House if he is aware of the fact that the present council is highly unsatisfactory and is denying the residents of Wandsworth the services which are common elsewhere? Will he also recognise that if the electors of Wandsworth dislike what is happening they can dismiss the council? Will he also recognise that if they obtain the same rights towards Members of this House we might be decimated?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, the councillors in Wandsworth do not seem to be very unpopular with the electorate, judging by the way the electorate voted in Wandsworth last year.

§ Baroness Carnegy of Lour
My Lords, with reference to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, about Scotland, does my noble friend the Leader of the House agree that during the first year and a half of its collection in Scotland the community charge was beginning to be accepted quite well and that in the second year there was a modest increase in the charge? Does he agree that it was only in the past year, when the massive campaign against the principle of the community charge and the non-payment campaign were under way in England and local authorities in Scotland threatened an average increase of 29 per cent. for this year, people in Scotland began to get worried?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, I should forbear to comment because I do not know as much as I ought to know about what has happened in Scotland. I can draw only on my own experience. I know that an extra charge on the community charge as a result of non-payment by others is very unpopular. I hope that all those who are involved in public life who have not paid their community charge will be thoroughly ashamed of themselves for heaping unnecessary burdens on others.

§ Lord Denham
My Lords, there is one more Question to come and the House has now decided that 30 minutes is the absolute limit for Questions. It is only fair to leave five minutes for the last Question.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I think that there are still six minutes remaining. Is not one of the difficulties facing the Government that the poll tax was introduced deliberately in order to benefit Conservative voters and that any fairer alternative will cause howls of anguish from those Conservative voters?

§ Lord Waddington
My Lords, that is demonstrably untrue, even if one looks only at the experience of Wandsworth and compares it with the experience in the neighbouring authority of Lambeth, where the problems are very similar.