London Transport Buses: Smoking Ban (Hansard, 13 March 1991)

§ The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Lord Brabazon of Tara)
My Lords, the decision is an operational matter for London Transport. It took it on the basis of its assessment of the wishes of its passengers. In public health terms, the benefits of the ban are obvious, and have been welcomed by the Government. It is too early to say whether the ban has had any impact on patronage.

§ Lord Harris of High Cross
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that somewhat illusive Answer. In a free society, whatever our personal opinions, habits or interests, is it not incumbent upon us all to resist the pressures of lobbies representing minorities against the widely enjoyed activities of other minorities, including huntin', shootin', fishin' and smokin'?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, so far as I am aware London Transport has not banned hunting, shooting or fishing, but the matter is one for London Transport. The Government have certain responsibilities regarding London Transport, but such matters are operational matters for it.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, my noble friend did not mention this point, but does he agree that the ban saves a great deal of cleaning and that many people were unwilling to travel upstairs because of the smoke hazard?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, yes, I understand that that is one of the reasons why London Transport introduced the ban. It will help relieve the overcrowding problems downstairs, because some passengers refused to travel on the upper deck where smoking was allowed.

§ Lord Hatch of Lusby
My Lords, have the Government put their own principles into practice by banning smoking in government limousines?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I do not know how many limousines the Government have. Ministers such as myself do not have a limousine, and smoking has not been banned in them.

§ Lord Beloff
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in the enlightened borough of Brighton smoking in corporation buses has been prohibited for some time, to the universal satisfaction of the inhabitants of that enlightened borough, except for that tiny minority which believes it to be a human right to puff noxious fumes into the lungs of innocent people?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, all I can say is that London Transport is a little behind Brighton.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, is it not a fact that London Transport is a monopoly, and that therefore people do not have a proper choice? Can it be right that London Transport's customers who smoke should be denied access to buses unless they agree not to smoke? Does the Minister agree that the stubborn and incompetent London Transport Board would be better employed in giving a decent service to the community in new, unclapped-out buses?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, I do not want to be drawn on the latter part of the noble Lord's question at this point. London Transport carried out research among 2,381 bus passengers in July of last year. Of the 31 per cent. surveyed who smoked, only 58 per cent. smoked on buses. That means that only 18 per cent. of all bus passengers smoke on the buses.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, on the contrary, does my noble friend agree that a public monopoly is not just within its rights but within its duty to ban a public nuisance from the service that it supplies?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, that is probably right. As I said, London Transport introduced the ban having carried out a study which indicated that it would be popularly received by the vast majority of passengers. The average bus journey in London takes about 15 minutes, and so I hope that most smokers can manage for that length of time without smoking.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, I accept what the Minister says about it being an operational matter for London Transport. Am I to assume from his reply that the Government accept the principle that everyone has the right to a smoke-free environment at work and in public places? Is not a bus a public place? Although smoking has been banned on London Underground for other reasons, is it not a fact that the ban has been overwhelmingly universally accepted by the public?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, as the noble Lord rightly says, smoking has been banned on the Underground for other reasons —largely safety reasons as a result of various sad events which have taken place over the past few years. This is very much a matter for London Transport. It is in business to try to satisfy its customers and it feels that the ban will have the support of the majority.

§ Lord Orr-Ewing
My Lords, has my noble friend observed that most Western European countries are anxious to preserve the right of the minority to smoke on public transport when they wish? Has he noticed that smoking has prevented neither Mr. Kinnock nor Mr. Ashdown from rising to the top of the Labour and Liberal parties? Do we really think it necessary that lesser fry should be banned from smoking on the top of buses?

§ Lord Brabazon of Tara
My Lords, all I can say is that in future the ban will prevent those two gentlemen whom my noble friend mentioned from rising to the top of the bus!