Proportional Representation (Hansard, 12 March 1991)

§ Lord Reay
No, my Lords.

§ Lord Holme of Cheltenham
My Lords, I thank the Minister for the predictability of his reply. I am glad that we have been able to save the Government 106. Is he aware that repeated opinion polls now show a two-to-one or three-to-one majority in the country supporting proportional representation? Is he further aware that during the past seven days powerful support for proportional representation has come from a most unexpected quarter? I refer to the Scottish Labour Party. Does the Minister agree that it is now high time that the issue of a fair voting system is considered in an objective rather than a partisan manner?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I see no evidence of increased support for proportional representation. In our view, the first-past-the-post system is simple and easily understood. It is familiar; it enables the voter to 71 have a direct link with the representative; and it is more likely to produce an overall majority in Parliament and so a strong and effective Government. We see no good reason for change.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, is it not true that the public are taking the matter into their own hands by using tactical voting? One might say that that is a poor man's version of proportional representation. They choose their second best when they cannot have their first choice.

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I can only repeat that we have seen no great evidence of increased support for change, and no overwhelming public demand for it.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, will my noble friend bear in mind that there are at least 14, and probably more, separate and divergent systems which go under the common name of proportional representation? Before we change, we had better know which system to back.

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, my noble and learned friend is quite right. There is not one system of proportional representation but a great many with almost limitless variations. They tend to be complex and more difficult to understand than the system that we have.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, is not almost any form of voting better than the system by which the Membership of this House is chosen?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, this Question deals with elections.

§ Lord Bonham-Carter
My Lords, does the noble Lord think it satisfactory that the views of Scottish Conservatives should be totally unrepresented in the European Parliament?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, the matter of the European Parliament is another Question. The Government will consider any proposals for a uniform procedure for the European Parliament whenever such proposals are put forward.

§ Lord Stallard
My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that the Government conduct elections on the basis of proportional representation in a part of the United Kingdom called Northern Ireland?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, the noble Lord is quite right. In Northern Ireland proportional representation is used for local government elections and European elections though not for elections to Westminster.

§ Lord Taylor of Gryfe
My Lords, does the noble Lord accept the proposition of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham, that there are 14 different forms of proportional representation? Is that not a justification for establishing a Royal Commission to examine the various forms of proportional representation? Does he accept that the weekend vote at the Scottish Labour Party conference, which represents 80 per cent. of the voting public in Scotland, showed a substantial move in this direction in that they supported proportional representation for the proposed Scottish assembly?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, as concerns the number of systems of proportional representation, I have a note 72 of 20 different forms; but I would not argue about the precise number. As regards reasons for setting up a Royal Commission, in our view everything is known about the subject. The Government have reached a decision and a Royal Commission would have no useful function.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Holme, prayed in aid opinion polls to support his case. Is he aware that on the basis of the last political opinion poll showing the state of the parties in the Ribble by-election, the Conservatives would have come first, Labour second and the Liberal Democrats last? Would the Minister advise the noble Lord, Lord Holme, to rely on opinion polls to form opinion?

§ Lord Reay
No, my Lords, I do not believe that one should rely on opinion polls.

§ Lord Underhill
My Lords, although the Minister is in favour of doing nothing at all, does he agree that I am wise in accepting that the Labour Party's adopted procedure is very sensible? Through it, a working party would consider the whole subject of electoral systems. That working party is now functioning and may consider recommending voting systems for different institutions, not necessarily any changes and not necessarily for all institutions.

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, it is most interesting to have that information. I am sure that we will await the outcome with interest. It does not seem as though the result will be simple.

§ Lord Holme of Cheltenham
My Lords, even if the Government's mind is closed on proportional representation—and it would appear on Royal Commissions—would they not be well advised to consider this matter more carefully in respect of European elections? We are now alone in Europe in not using proportional representation, and the Government should consider whether being at the heart of Europe—according to this morning's newspapers—does not also involve using the same democratic systems as the whole of the rest of Europe.

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, as regards the position in Europe, proposals on this matter would need to be adopted by the European Parliament. No such proposals have been adopted. When they are put forward, we shall consider them on their merits.

§ Baroness Elles
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that a vast number of European politicians who have failed to curry favour with the leader of their parties and have not been included in the lists of those to be elected to the European Parliament would greatly prefer our system to their own?

§ Lord Reay
My Lords, I am sure that it is difficult for a single uniform procedure to be agreed within the European Parliament on this matter. No doubt that is why it is taking such a long time for proposals to be brought forward.