HL Deb 11 March 1991 vol 527 cc5-6

2.47 p.m.

Lord Ennals asked Her Majesty's Government:

What was the average in-patient waiting list for NHS treatment in England between March 1976 and March 1979; what was the average in-patient waiting list in England between March 1990 and September 1990; and what is the percentage increase in the average size of the waiting list between these two periods.

Lord Cavendish of Furness

My Lords, between March 1976 and March 1979 the average number waiting for NHS in-patient treatment in England was 620,000. Figures for September 1990 are not yet available, but the number waiting, on a comparable basis, at March 1990 was 710,253. That is an increase of 14.6 per cent. on the earlier figure.

Lord Ennals

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for the information that he has given. Has he seen the figures that cover all the regions for both March and September 1990? They show an average figure of 955,601 for those two periods. That would mean an increase of about 53 per cent. Is it not strange that he should produce figures which are quite different from those already made public? If statistics can be used in this irresponsible way, does it not show the importance of the debate on statistics which is to be introduced on Wednesday by my noble friend Lord Donoughue?

Lord Cavendish of Furness

My Lords, regarding statistics being used in an irresponsible way, it is a strange question which compares one three-year period with a later six-month period. I am not aware of the figures; but when comparing the average numbers waiting for in-patient treatment in the three-year period between March 1976 and March 1979 with the numbers waiting at a fixed point of time in 1990, I acknowledge that the size of the waiting list has increased. I do not know where the figure of 50 per cent. comes from. However, in the period covered by the Question, the number of in-patients treated has increased by 26 per cent.

Lord Thorneycroft

My Lords, will my noble friend inform me whether hospital authorities are entitled to contract-out any part of their waiting lists for some operations to the continent of Europe, particularly to northern France? If that is the case, on what scale is it being carried out?

Lord Cavendish of Furness

My Lords, the Question of the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, was narrowly defined. I am afraid that I am not prepared to go wide of it today. However, I should be pleased to answer such a question on another occasion, if the noble Lord cares to table one.

Lord Williams of Elvel

My Lords, is the Minister aware that we are in the curious situation where the Minister has produced figures from his department which are at variance with those produced by my noble friend Lord Ennals? However, the latter figures come from the same department. How can the two different sets of figures be reconciled?

Lord Cavendish of Furness

My Lords, there are many figures going around. I can only guess at where the difference might lie. If the sources of the figures were identified more closely, no doubt it would all become clear.

Lord Ennals

My Lords, my figures were not guesses. They came straight from the Minister's department. The situation is indeed peculiar.

Lord Cavendish of Furness

My Lords, my figures were not guesses either.

Lord McColl of Dulwich

My Lords, does not my noble friend agree that we should be sympathetic to the noble Lord, Lord Ennals, as he is clearly having great difficulty with elementary statistics? He surely ought to know that in statistical terms one cannot compare the mean of a three-year period 14 years ago with the mean of a six-month period now. That simply will not do.

Lord Cavendish of Furness

My Lords, my noble friend is correct. To compare a three-year period with a six-month period more than a decade later offers few insights into the state of the National Health Service either then or now. As the service is being denigrated, I must say that I have never met a colleague who is not utterly committed to the future of the National Health Service. Since this Government came into office, resources in England for the NHS have increased by £17.2 billion. That is an increase of 44 per cent. in real terms.