Wales: the Social Infrastructure

HL Deb 05 March 1991 vol 526 cc1360-84

6.23 p.m.

Lord Morris of Castle Morris rose to ask Her Majesty's Government what is the state of the social infrastructure in Wales.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, in laying before your Lordships a conspectus of the problems besetting the social infrastructure in Wales, I am obliged to make reference to the somewhat unsavoury subject of sewage, its collection, processing and disposal. Any noble Lords who may be of a nervous disposition should be warned and if necessary switch to another channel.

The term "social infrastructure" was best defined by my noble friend Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos in a notable speech in your Lordships' House on 18th January 1984. He said: I take infrastructure in its widest definition as covering 'those services regarded as essential in sustaining a modern economy"'.—[Official Report, 18/1/84; col. 1052.]

He went on to indicate areas of communications, roads and railways, together with sewage and drainage, although he did not regard that as an exclusive list.

The 1984 debate was on the infrastructure of the United Kingdom. However, its categories are applicable to Wales and some of the statistics are a fruitful source of telling comparisons. For example, and to return to the noisome topic of sewage, my noble friend pointed out that your Lordships' Select Committee on Science and Technology had not long before referred to 5,000 sewer failures a year and 3,500 collapses with repair costs of £100 million. The most recent figures that I have been able to obtain, recorded on the NRA public registers, list the 10 regional authorities in England and Wales and the number of sewage treatment works that failed their consent conditions in the period from September 1989 to September 1990. Welsh Water is the third worst and Severn Trent the fourth worst out of 10. Between them they account for 27 per cent. of the total failed works. If we recall that the population of the United Kingdom is about 20 times that of Wales, it suggests that the sewers of Wales are in no better condition than they were seven years ago, and probably rather worse.

Noble Lords may not be robustly reassured when they read in the prospectus of Severn Trent Water words that are presumably meant to bring us comfort and conviction. The prospectus states: Severn Trent Water has adopted a standard specification for sewer records. The process of compiling all records to this specification commenced prior to 1983, and approximately 60 per cent. of these records have been completed. The Directors believe the exercise will be finished by 1997, in advance of the requirement imposed by the Water Act to complete mapping of sewers by 1st September, 1999. Until this exercise is completed, the Directors will not be able to establish accurately the total length of sewers in the Sewerage Region".

When that exercise is completed, and the directors at last know what they are responsible for, we can at least be sure that the record will bear none of the stigmata of a rushed job. Meanwhile, the people in that part of Wales will have to possess their souls in patience and keep their fingers crossed.

What confidence can we have in the providers of our water supply when, as recently as 8th February the Guardian hilariously reported that, Severn Trent Water admitted yesterday that it has put extra chlorine into its drinking water to 'safeguard' against Iraqi terrorism".

Ann Taylor, Labour's spokeswoman for environmental protection, said that she suspected the water company had used terrorism as an excuse to cover up an outbreak of cryptosporidia. "Not so", said Mr. Vic Cocker, Severn Trent's managing director. He admitted, however, that the chlorine was, to safeguard water supplies to our customers, especially in the light of the situation in the Gulf".

Now that the war is over, perhaps we may permit ourselves to speculate. In what beleaguered bunker beneath Baghdad did Mr. Cocker think this dastardly plan was hatched? In whose fevered imagination was this plan of defeat by diarrhoea, or conquest by constipation, first engendered? Does Mr. Cocker really believe that someone said, "Brothers, let us put cryptosporidia in Severn Trent's water supplies. That will bring Britain to its knees"? What confidence can we in Wales have when our water supplies are administered amid such fantasy?

I often think that a sewage system ought to be like life itself: you get out of it what you put into it. Unfortunately, that is not so. The problems of breakdown, flooding and pollution mean that what ends up in the inshore waters of Cardigan Bay or on the beaches of Wales is very often no better than it ought to be. In a Principality heavily dependent on the tourist industry, beach pollution is a money matter. The issue was reviewed in 1984–85 by the Commons Welsh Affairs Committee which found a pattern of some 260 outfalls around the Welsh coast, 112 of them coastal and 148 estuarine. They discharge 56 per cent. of the wastes from the population directly to the sea. In 1985 only 30 per cent. of the outfalls complied with the then DoE guidelines that solids should not be deposited on the foreshore and that discolouration and foaming should not be visible from the shore. Many of the outfalls are short outfalls—that is, they do not reach the low water mark—and the wastes receive no treatment whatsoever. That, to put it politely, is an aesthetic problem. And it is probably a public health problem as well.

Welsh Water and the Welsh regional NRA are committed to bringing Welsh beaches to EC standards by the year 2000. That is a full 15 years after the review by the Commons Welsh Affairs Committee. In 1990 Wales had 15 "fail" category beaches and 36 "pass" beaches: not one reached the blue flag category of excellence. I hope that the Minister in her reply may be able to give some facts. How many, for example, of the 260 outfalls are now modern, long sea outfalls? What is the expected completion date of engineering works? Is there any plan to ensure at least one blue flag beach in Wales? And just how dangerous are these befouled beaches to public health? Some time ago the Western Mail ran the headline, "Welsh beaches revolting but safe, MPs told". Is that still the case?

When we turn from the literal infrastructure of waste and water to the breezier realms of communication and transport we find the problems peculiar to Wales no less acute. In particular, despite bus deregulation and privatisation, the difficulties of rural areas remain unsolved and their services unimproved. The report commissioned by the Transport and Road Research Laboratory from Professor Cloke at St. David's University College, Lampeter—and I here declare an interest as principal of that lovely little college—concludes that there have been, very few changes in the Powys/Clwyd study area in the post-deregulation phase. Perhaps of all the TRRL's study areas, this has been the quietest in terms of innovations, service changes, and other impacts which might be traced directly or indirectly to deregulation. The report adds that, no new operators emerged as major forces in running tendered or commercial services in the more rural zones. and that, the local authorities by national standards have not made significant net savings on their tendering procedures. It goes on to say that, bus services in rural mid-Wales have suffered significant historical decline and that the, service levels prior to deregulation in many cases represented a minimal network of routes and journeys. Now, regardless of the contempt in which the population seems to be held, one thing is certain. Inward investment will not be attracted while such primitive communications—the result of the failure of the government policy of deregulation—continue to be tolerated.

But the complacent tranquillity of rural bus services is but an unwelcome echo of the deep silence on the rural railway lines, the few which remain after Beeching's axe. Those who care for that delightful little survivor, the Heart of Wales line, are deeply concerned over the cuts to the public service obligation grant which funds the provincial railway services. In 1989–90 the grant had a target of £422 million. In 1992–93 the target is only £345 million, and this takes no account of inflation. The Heart of Wales line has already made cuts in its winter timetable evening services from Monday to Thursday and more will unquestionably follow. This is no way to attract passengers. It is no way to attract tourists. It is no way to run a railway. Can the Minister explain the need for a cut which is as costly as it is trivial?

On the larger scale, where rail services are surely meant to facilitate the work of commerce and industry, there are again constant complaints and unanswered questions. The Council of Welsh Districts has recently articulated some of them. They urgently need answers, and I bring forward just a few. First, in 1989 British Rail published a number of proposals for international passenger transport from Wales via the Channel Tunnel, which included a direct rail link between South Wales and Waterloo with timetabled connections to the first international passenger trains; night-time passenger trains from South Wales to Brussels and Paris; and timetabled connections at Crewe and Wolverhampton for passengers from North Wales and mid-Wales seeking international trains. Have any of these proposals been modified? Or are they now firm intentions?

Secondly, in 1989 British Rail published a proposal to site an international freight terminal in South Wales. Is that still a firm intention? If so, when will it be in place? Thirdly, the Minister of Transport recently told the Welsh local authority associations that he would consider the question of "additionality" if and when European funds could be attracted to investment into the North Wales main line, implying that there is no fixed government policy on the issue. What government policies regarding "additionality" would be required for British Rail to take advantage of European funding?

Fourthly, what is the latest position on the implementation of the recommendations in the Steer Davies Gleave Report published last year on, "Mid-Wales Railways—A Strategy for the Nineties"? Satisfactory answers to these and many other questions about British Rail's intentions and government policies and funding would mitigate the sheer bewilderment of many people in Wales who wonder about the state of rail transport. I realise that the noble Baroness is unlikely to be able to provide answers to the many questions I have asked—which are of a detailed nature—off the cuff and on the hoof, and I hereby absolve her of any necessity to do so. However, I would be grateful if, in the fullness of time, she could let me know the answers to as many as she can manage.

A similar lack of clarity and decisiveness emerges when we look at housing in Wales. Government statistics, given in a parliamentary reply in May 1990, suggest a crude surplus of some 80,000 dwellings. But that figure is significantly reduced if we exclude dwellings not in use (about 7 per cent.), and unfit dwellings (probably about 6 per cent. at present). The Wales branch of the Institute of Housing calculated recently that there is currently a shortfall of nearly 100,000 dwellings in Wales. But as Gareth Hughes points out in the Welsh Housing Quarterly: Any debate about statistics seems to me to centre on whether the situation is disastrous or merely diabolical. However, what is not in doubt is that we have a serious housing problem. Shelter currently estimate that there are about 40,000 people in Wales who are homeless. Homelessness, according to Professor John Greve, has doubled during the 1980s.

The social infrastructure of Wales is quite clearly not, at present, sustaining a modern economy. Manufacturers and local authorities striving to attract inward investment cry out for better transport, more good housing, better communications, safer water, better drains, and a less polluted environment. But the very sign and symbol, the icon, of the ramshackle state of the infrastructure in Wales is that profoundly unsatisfactory edifice, the Severn Bridge.

Since it was opened in 1966 the bridge has been almost perpetually under repair. At the moment traffic is frequently down to one lane in each direction. When there are two lanes they are so narrow that cars and vast lorries are only inches apart, threading and twisting their way through a wilderness of little red cones for the privilege of paying a toll which went up from 20 pence to £1 in 1989, an increase of 500 per cent.

Queues are routine and commonplace at any peak period. Yesterday, I queued for one and a quarter hours merely to get on to the wretched thing. And the bridge is closed to all traffic as soon as there is anything much stronger than a stiff breeze. Vehicles are then serenely diverted via the M.5 to enjoy bracing prospects of Gloucester, which can add hours to journeys and, of far more significance, thousands of pounds to transport costs. Yet this fate-stricken structure, the Severn Bridge, is the gateway to Wales. We desperately need a second crossing, whether it is provided from public or private funds.

Shelly said, Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world and the Welsh poet, Harri Webb, was a prophet in his own country when in 1966 in his "Ode on the Severn Bridge," which I beg leave to recite to your Lordships in full, he wrote: Two lands at last connected Across the waters wide And all the tolls collected On the English side.

6.40 p.m.

Baroness White

My Lords, those of us who come from the Principality are indebted to my noble friend Lord Morris of Castle Morris for tabling this Question, to which the reply had originally been expected last week on the eve of St. David's Day, but other business intervened. I have looked at various aspects of our social structure in Wales, though not in the same direction as my noble friend. Incidentally, 2½ hours this morning in Select Committee on the European Community sewerage was sufficient.

But there are many aspects of our social infrastructure. For example, only last night I received the comments of the director of the Welsh Council for the Disabled on the recent Welsh Office report on social services in Wales for disabled adults. The comments were critical: There has been little … investment in any means of finding out how many disabled people need services, so plans can not be based on real need. There are no clear allocation policies.

Assessment … is rarely provided on the basis of need. What counts is the articulacy"— most of us in Wales are articulate— and persistence of the applicant. Relationships between social services and housing authorities are virtually non-existent", and so on.

I could go on with this and bring in many other aspects of our social fabric in Wales; but on reflection I concluded that by far the most important element of our social infrastructure in Wales is the Welsh Office itself: how it is run, how effective it is, whether it has the most appropriate conglomeration of responsibilities and various other factors or characteristics.

The sphere of influence and authority of the Welsh Office has expanded greatly since the days when I was a Minister of State under my noble friend Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos and also, rather more briefly, the noble Viscount, Lord Tonypandy. Whether the resources of money and manpower have kept pace with the additional duties which have been added in the intervening years could be a very interesting subject to pursue; but it is not suitable for a brief discussion following an Unstarred Question. So I propose to confine my comments to the relevance and relationship of the Welsh Office to our duties as Members of your Lordships' House.

We are fortunate that the Leader of the Opposition is a most notable Welshman. Our Deputy Leader is also from Wales. We have a former Prime Minister, my noble friend Lord Callaghan, who had a Welsh seat in the other place for several decades. My noble friend Lord Prys-Davies and the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, are notable in the legal profession in Wales and there are other noble Lords on this side of the House with Welsh connections.

There are notable Welsh figures on the other side of the House, including two former Secretaries of State for Wales; and I am delighted that we have the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gwydir, with us tonight, whether or not he takes part in our debate. I am not quite clear whether he is to speak. In any case it is most appropriate that he should be here, even though our other former Secretary of State, the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, is, as I hope, by now back in the Principality.

On the Government side, there are a number of former departmental Ministers who hail from the Principality, including the noble Lord, Lord Gibson-Watt, who succeeded me at the Welsh Office. But on the Government Front Bench, while the Scots are generously represented with the Lord Advocate, a junior Minister at the Scottish Office and several noble Lords of distinguished Scottish lineage, since the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, retired from office there has been no one on that Bench opposite who has a recognisable Welsh background.

I cannot emphasise too strongly that what I am about to say is not in any way intended to criticise or in any degree to disparage the efforts of the two official ministerial spokesmen on Welsh affairs who are now sitting upon the Government Front Bench. We all hold the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, in very high regard. No one could be more assiduous in her devotion to duty and she has won our warm affection, if I may be permitted to say so, by her cheerfulness and good humour, sometimes in difficult circumstances. I was delighted to learn of her recent visit to Wales, to Aberystwyth, with which I have close connections, and elsewhere. She is most welcome and I hope that she will come again.

I must confess, with suitable apologies, that until last week I had not realised that the noble Lord, Lord Reay, was a Government spokesman for Wales. But I then learnt that he had been so listed since last October. As he has since then intervened most effectively in his other areas of responsibility, which are listed as home affairs, foreign affairs and defence, but has had the opportunity to reply to just one Welsh Question during that period, I hope that my ignorance may be excused.

As a Scottish Peer, he is expected to answer for Wales. The fact that the noble Lord's title goes back to 1628; that he is the Chief of the Clan Mackay; that he holds a Dutch title, too, and has a second home in Holland—all these are most admirable adjuncts—but, with the greatest respect, they do not qualify him to understand the intricacies and nuances of Welsh affairs.

The position might be slightly more tolerable if in this House we could put what one might call "targeted" questions of Ministers, as can be done in another place. Here our questions are normally addressed to Her Majesty's Government without any specific attribution.

The result is not always satisfactory. I touched on one subject, derelict land reclamation, some days ago, on 25th February to be precise, because an original ministerial answer had not mentioned Wales at all, but only England. There seems to be no rule about this, nor is it clear how exactly the Welsh Office and the office of the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington, or the staff of the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, in that case, co-ordinate their efforts where Wales is concerned.

I have picked out at random several recent examples of relevant parliamentary Written Answers. On 24th January, there was the roll call of departmental Ministers who now have specific responsibility for environmental matters, a move for which the Government took considerable credit. There were 19 in all which, rather surprisingly, included the Treasury and the Department of Social Security. It listed the Scottish Office but not the Welsh Office, although the Welsh Office has major environmental responsibilities.

On 27th February, there were the organisations listed for consultation about land compensation and compulsory purchase legislation, including English Heritage, but not CADW; and the National Farmers' Union, the NFU, but not the Farmers' Union of Wales, the FUW—a separate organisation.

However, on the same page the Secretary of State for Wales was included in a reply on planning appeals, and on the next day we had the happy conjunction of a joint DoE and Welsh Office document on integrated pollution control which I am sure encouraged my noble friend considerably. Those are minor matters. However, there are major problems in Wales. If the noble Baroness were responsible for taking account of only Welsh aspects of agriculture, fisheries and food, we should be content. In any case, we should give her a welcome in the hillsides. However, it cannot be satisfactory to expect her to stimulate the Welsh Office into providing what I call alert information on the whole range of Welsh Office responsibilities.

Nor is it satisfactory simply to read briefs, however carefully prepared they may be. One needs understanding and experience behind them in order to have satisfactory discussions on major problems in our country of Wales. Of course, we can understand some of the Government's difficulties. However, to my mind it is not fair or satisfactory to expect too much from a very busy Minister, particularly a Minister of State of a department like MAFF, which has a very difficult role at present. I listen to "Farming Today" nearly every morning so that I know some of the problems which require attention. Surely such a responsible Minister has enough to do as it is.

Therefore, in this short debate on the Welsh social infrastructure I feel compelled to thank the noble Baroness most sincerely and genuinely for her attention to Welsh matters. I express the hope that the noble Lord, Lord Reay, may find time to visit the Principality. However, at the same time one must indicate that, in order to have adequate discussion on Welsh affairs in your Lordships' House, that is not enough.

6.52 p.m.

Lord Thomas of Gwydir

My Lords, it was not my intention to intervene in this fascinating and valuable debate. However, as the noble Baroness, Lady White, referred to me, I feel impelled to say a few words.

First, I was very disappointed that she concentrated almost the whole of her speech on a rather petty matter. As I understand it, she is saying that the interests of Wales are not sufficiently looked after in this debate because my noble friend Lady Trumpington has no Welsh background. My noble friend is a Minister. The noble Baroness knows very well that in this House not every department of state is represented by a Minister. Frequently, junior Ministers from other departments reply to debates or answer Questions of another department.

My noble friend speaks with the authority of the Welsh Office this evening, as well as having the authority of her own department behind her. I believe that this House would accept that she is sensitive to any point put forward and I have no doubt that she will try to consider every possible point raised in this debate. She will do just as well as any Welshman who might have been appointed to sit in her place.

Perhaps the noble Baroness would like to consider an Act of Parliament—the Race Relations Act. She may find that she has contravened the whole purpose of that Act and in that respect she has been slightly racist. She is a person for whom I have had a great deal of time over the years. We have known each other for many years and I have great respect for her. However, her concentration on that one petty matter this evening was not worthy of her.

Incidentally, I believe she said that we have no one who has any qualification to understand the intricacies of Welsh affairs. However, perhaps she does not appreciate that my noble friend was a landlady with Lloyd George. Therefore, in those circumstances if anybody is able to understand the intricacies of Welsh affairs, she is.

Baroness White

My Lords, as I understand it the noble Baroness was a landgirl on Lloyd George's estate. That does not qualify her to have a full knowledge of contemporary Wales. While I am on my feet, perhaps I may say to the noble Lord that I am not referring to this debate in particular. I am referring to the general position of Welsh affairs in your Lordships' House.

Lord Thomas of Gwydir

My Lords, when the noble Baroness came to the House of Commons, followed shortly afterwards by myself, there was the first Minister for Welsh Affairs—David Maxwell Fife. He was known affectionately throughout Wales as "Dai Bananas". Nobody would ever suggest that that Scotsman was other than deeply concerned with all the intricacies, which the noble Baroness mentioned, of Welsh affairs. He was an enormously popular Minister for Welsh Affairs and will be remembered as someone who understood the many problems which we have.

Perhaps I may congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Castle Morris, on initiating this debate. It is interesting that he refers to: the state of the social infrastructure in Wales". That is a wonderful title because it opens up everything. I was intrigued to know what he would talk about. He referred to water, sewage, rural areas, railways, communications and nearly every matter. The only matter to which he did not refer—and this surprised me—is the Welsh language. The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, may refer to that.

Not very long ago we had a debate about rural matters in Wales and the preservation of the Welsh language. Perhaps I may ask my noble friend about one matter which may be of interest. The Welsh Language Board has produced a report and it has also produced a draft Bill. I was interested in that because in 1964 when we had just become the Opposition party, I initiated a debate in the Welsh Grand Committee on the Hughes-Parry Report. The Labour Government followed the view which I expressed, although they did not carry out in full the recommendations of that report. I ask my noble friend to consider this new report and draft Bill. I do not believe that one should consider it too quickly. It is very intricate—I use a word used by the noble Baroness—and involves many matters which must be considered very carefully. However, that is of interest and I hope that the noble Baroness will be able to say that it will be considered very carefully by Her Majesty's Government.

I should like to ask about only one other matter. I am afraid I am a little remote from detail these days. I believe that there has been an increase in the Welsh language grants—which are of great importance—that are given to local authorities and other educational bodies. I shall be grateful to my noble friend for any information that she is able to supply on that point.

I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Morris, on an extremely interesting opening speech. My intention was not to make a speech; it was to be here to listen and to learn. I believe I have learnt a little from the noble Lord's opening and certainly support him on two matters. I should like strong consideration to be given as soon as possible to a national freight terminal in South Wales. I am sure that all noble Lords agree that there should be a second Severn crossing.

Lord Morris of Castle Morris

My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down, perhaps I may say that I am grateful for his remarks. But does he not agree that discussion on the Welsh language would be inappropriate in this debate because it is not part of the infrastructure of Wales? It is part of the heart and soul of Wales.

Lord Thomas of Gwydir

My Lords, I cannot possibly join issue with the noble Lord on that emotional and proper point.

7.2 p.m.

Lord Hooson

My Lords, I am sure that the House is grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady White, for provoking the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gwydir, into intervening in the debate. We are delighted to hear him. He was always a very good defence advocate and obviously felt that a little defence advocacy was necessary. However, I am sorry that the noble Lord did not speak a little more extensively on the social infrastructure. Like himself, I was puzzled when I saw the words, the state of the social infrastructure in Wales". They sounded like buzz words to me. I am puzzled to know what are their limits. Where does social infrastructure begin and end? I presumed, as did the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gwydir, that the debate could cover virtually everything.

I too congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Castle Morris, on putting the Unstarred Question, and on his speech. I particularly enjoyed his ending with the quotation of Harri Webb, that the tolls were always collected on the English side. Regrettably, that is a bad habit that has existed for over a millennium. I do not suppose that we shall change it; the tolls will always be collected there.

We should all be concerned with the social well-being of the communities that live in Wales. I emphasise the word "communities". In my view it is not right to encourage a free-for-all approach based almost entirely on materialistic values and economic short-termism. That approach excludes concern for the community as a community, having regard to its traditions, values, linguistic patterns and so forth. The Welsh liberal approach and tradition, which I have always been proud to share, acknowledges the value of free enterprise, personal endeavour and individual responsibility in creating a prosperous and contented society. However, we do not believe and never have believed that those forces should be uncontrolled to the extent that they are allowed to wreak havoc on whole communities and their way of life. To think otherwise is to condone a form of economic colonialism whereby naked economic forces are allowed to dominate and change existing societies willy-nilly.

In my view Wales is not England with a different accent. It is the home territory of a nation; of a distinct and complicated society with subtly different values, traditions and approach to life. That should be reflected in the approach of government to the problems of Wales, including its social infrastructure.

I want to dwell shortly on three matters which, in different ways, are part of that social infrastructure. The first concerns housing. In many areas of Wales, particularly in rural Wales, numbers of the native population, especially among the young, are unable to afford a roof over their heads. That situation is totally unacceptable. We have gone back decades in some facets of social development, and housing is such a facet. In 1945, at the end of the war, we would never have contemplated such a situation. I always thought it was a great mistake—disagreeing with the dominant views in my party and the Labour and Conservative parties—to sell council houses. Possibly we should have stopped building more council houses and encouraged private enterprise to build homes for the young, and encouraged home ownership. But we should have kept and improved the existing council housing estates for those people who are young, old or infirm; who are so uncertain in their economic future and circumstances that they cannot afford the responsibility of home ownership and wish to rent at a reasonable and acceptable level. At the very least the local housing authorities should have had the option.

It is time that the Government and the Secretary of State for Wales rid themselves of their total and unjustified prejudice against district councils as housing authorities. The Government's attitude appears to have been cast in concrete and set by an over-reaction to a few large housing authorities in England which were irresponsible. I am sure that the noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gwydir and Lord Prys-Davies, know from their respective parties that there are many responsible councillors of all parties on district councils. The Government do not need any more housing associations, Tai Cymru or anything else. They should allow the district councils in Wales, particularly in rural Wales, to build houses to let for their own local people. Moreover, those new houses should not be subject to sale.

Last week there was a debate in the Welsh Grand Committee in another place. It transpired from the figures quoted that a large number of people in Powys, Dyfed, Clwyd and Brent in particular are in the earning bracket of £100 to £130 per week. That is the lowest end of the earnings range in the United Kingdom. How can those people afford to buy houses and pay mortgages on them? Is not there a responsibility owed to those young people—and I know a number of them—who cannot afford to buy homes or pay economic rents. They are surely entitled to have a roof over their heads. That should be a top priority for the Government.

I shall turn to transport. I have no comment on the road programme or the Severn crossing. I am concerned with the deplorable state of public transport, particularly in rural Wales. The people on the lowest average weekly wage in the UK—except possibly parts of Northern Ireland and Western Scotland—need a motor vehicle of their own, with all its costs, simply to travel to work or to give their families any chance of getting out of their village. Our taxation system, with its allowances for company cars for business and professional use, is totally tilted in favour of the better-off and against the interests of the worse-off. It is an impossible situation that should not be allowed to continue. With the lack of buses children, old people and youngsters cannot leave their villages to share the life of the community at large.

When I was the Member of Parliament for Montgomeryshire years ago, I pressed in my early days for post buses on the lines of the Swiss. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas, was the Secretary of State at the time. We had the first post bus provided between Llanidloes and Llangurig. That post bus still runs today. But how many more post buses have been run in Wales? Why were they not extended? We need urgent action to provide and subsidise decent rural bus services. We should look again at the question of providing rural post buses throughout Wales otherwise our villages will continue their present path of becoming mere dormitories providing retirement homes and second homes for the better off in our community, with the local population largely excluded.

As regards railways, the Welsh Rural Development Board has rightly been trying to encourage more industry into Mid-Wales, emphasising the benefits of developing industry there. Yet at the same time organisations like British Rail have been positively discouraging development in Mid-Wales. I have travelled regularly between there and London. I live in Mid-Wales and I have travelled to London for the past 30 years virtually weekly. Today the journey by train is far more hazardous and unacceptable than it was 30 years ago despite all the protests of British Rail to the contrary. The service has become worse so far as concerns comfort, reliability, facilities and services. The posters of the Welsh Rural Development Board say that Mid-Wales is a place for development and that communications are good and steadily improving.

I have in my hand the latest timetable for the trains between Aberystwyth on the west coast of Wales and Shrewsbury which is the railhead for London. One cannot leave Aberystwyth now, even on a Monday morning, before 7.8 a.m. The journey to Shrewsbury on that train takes over two hours. It is the only train from Mid-Wales which has a connection with the through train from Shrewsbury. There are a number of through trains from Shrewsbury to Euston, but British Rail make sure that the Mid-Wales trains do not connect with them. The train reaches London at 12.31 p.m. The only return train which one can catch as a through train as far as Shrewsbury is at 3.40 in the afternoon. That is the only through train connection during the day. That is infinitely worse than the service has ever been in the time I have used it. It is an absolute disgrace that we have to put up with this situation in Wales.

I wish to turn to a totally unconnected subject and that is the Welsh language. I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gwydir, raised the subject. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, will also refer to it. In particular, I wish to refer to the grave shortage of teachers of the Welsh language at all levels in Wales. That includes nursery, primary, secondary and adult levels of education. There is a very great demand for such teachers. The Government need to give special encouragement to the subject. We should concentrate also on improving the teaching of Welsh as a second language through the use of first-class modern videos, and so on. There should be a concentrated effort here because there is a genuine demand in Wales.

My forebears moved into Wales about 200 years ago and became absorbed and assimilated into Welsh life. Many people moving into Wales now similarly want to be absorbed and assimilated. These days that is much more difficult because of the modern media, and so forth. There should be a concentrated and genuine effort to provide first-class Welsh videos for adult and school education. I have seen a number of videos, but I have seen no videos or films teaching Welsh that compare in quality, interest and presentation skills with those presented by BBC 2 for the teaching of French, Italian, Spanish as second languages. I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Castle Morris, is here and listening to this point as he is the principal of one of the constituent colleges of the University of Wales. The University of Wales has a great deal to answer for because of its failure to attract Welsh students to the university. That has been particularly true because of its efforts in the 1960s to become just another redbrick university. That was a very mistaken policy in going for numbers while being encouraged by the Government at the time.

It is a matter of grave concern in Wales that relatively few of the students from the sixth form in Welsh secondary schools go to the University of Wales. In the 1960s in particular the university turned its back on the precepts and guiding principles of its founding fathers and ceased to try seriously to attract Welsh students. It preferred competing with the redbrick universities in the scramble of those days. It is high time that this trend was changed. There is a very heavy onus on the university to see to this matter and to liaise more effectively with the schools.

I am a firm believer in Wales being a bi-lingual society. Wales is a series of communities. There should be ample opportunity for all children who want to have their education in Welsh to go to a Welsh school where English is taught as a second language, and those who want to go to a school where the teaching is in English should be able to do so and have Welsh taught as a second language. In that way we shall become a much more tolerant and bi-lingual society.

It is high time that the Government declare themselves on the Welsh language issue. Here I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gwydir. The Welsh language Bill in its draft form needs careful and critical consideration. Nevertheless, the Government have had time to consider a number of drafts including that prepared by the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies. It is time that they declared themselves. The danger of the Government's approach is this. Over the centuries Wales and the Welsh language have survived direct attempts to kill it. They have survived hostility, and so on. What is much more difficult for them to survive is half-hearted support. It is half-hearted support when people pay lip service to saving the language and allowing it to have equal validity, but not actually putting their backs into making sure that there is an effective policy. That is where the Government are found lacking at the present time. It is high time that they declared themselves on the Welsh language issue.

7.19 p.m.

Lord Prys-Davies

My Lords, I too thank my noble friend Lord Morris for introducing this subject and giving the House the opportunity to discuss Welsh affairs. Those who have been privileged to know the Welsh poet, Harri Webb will appreciate that he would have listened with a wry smile to hearing his ode recited in your Lordships' House. Nevertheless, it is fitting that his message should be heard in this environment.

At the outset I want to pay tribute to the South Wales miners and the South Wales Miners Federation. A week ago the South Wales section of the National Union of Mineworkers, the successor in title to the South Wales Miners Federation, sadly announced that its president, Mr. Les Dutfield, was surrendering the union's presidency due to the sharp and severe decline in the coal industry. That was an announcement unprecedented in the history of the South Wales miners. So an amazing chapter in the history of modern Wales has drawn to its close. If one wants to capture a glimpse of that chapter one can read the book of the late Dr. Thomas Jones, the father of my noble friend Lady White. It seems to me that in discussing the Welsh social structure of today one must recall that it was the South Wales Miners Federation which established in South Wales more than 200 miners welfare halls and libraries. It also established many medical aid societies, from which Aneurin Bevan drew his inspiration, and built at least a dozen hospitals.

In Cardiff dockland there stands the Corn Exchange; the erstwhile palace of the coal merchants. In that great hall there is a stained glass window which depicts two small medieval ships—two cogs, the "Morgannwg" and the "Taf" —blazing the challenge, "The Old Order Changeth". That has been the history of Wales. We are today as usual still engaged in the endless task of rebuilding and reshaping our industry, our roads, our homes and, as the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, said, our communities. This emerges very clearly in the moving speeches in another place last week of the Member for Merthyr Tydfil and the Member for Llanelli.

Probably the greatest problem facing Wales at the moment is the 100,000 who are unemployed. In some communities unemployment is entrenched, not just in the industrial valleys of South Wales but also in the rural areas of Wales. It is probably no more than a sad coincidence that that is the number of jobs lost from the mines during the past three decades. The job now is to go all out to fill the cleared sites with thriving workshops and factories. Coal brought iron and steel, roads and railways, sewers and brand new docks so that Wales could export to the whole world. Today the local authorities are pressing the Welsh Office to argue their case with British Rail for an international freight terminal in South Wales to facilitate the direct movement of traffic from South Wales through the Channel Tunnel to the central European markets. Many of us have seen the letter which the Council of Welsh Districts sent to the Secretary of State for Wales on 14th February. It was one of the letters referred to by my noble friend Lord Morris. I wonder whether the Welsh Office is prepared to give support for that particular project.

The Select Committee on Welsh Affairs, which is doing a splendid job of work under the chairmanship of Gareth Wardell suggested in its report on inward investment that there is an urgent need to develop higher education so that Wales can meet the fast changing needs of modern industry. In the course of its investigations the committee stumbled across the disturbing evidence that overseas industrialists are complaining of the inadequacy of the education system, though it seems to me that the complaint was not explored in any depth. We are all proud of the Welsh concern about education and its achievements, but that should not make us complacent. Nevertheless, it seems to many of us quite wrong for the Secretary of State to take over, as and from April next year, the local authority colleges of higher education at Cardiff, Gwent, Bangor and West Glamorgan. I am sure the Minister will know that this decision was severely criticised by The Times Higher Education Supplement on 8th February. This criticism was foreshadowed by an article in the THES last June. This paper firmly condemned the decision as being "the worst possible decision". It is only fair to those who are employed in those colleges and to students and potential students that the Welsh Office should produce a clear and convincing reply to that criticism, if it is able to do so.

Meanwhile, I have just three questions on that issue for the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington. First, was this specific proposal fully tested by independent consultants? Was it further tested in the light of widespread discussion in the Principality? Secondly, how many additional staff will have to be recruited by the Welsh Office education department to meet the new demands to be created by the takeover? Thirdly, what is the formula for compensating the local authorities for the loss of their capital assets? The local authorities will be interested in the Minister's answer to that question.

I now turn to housing; an issue which has been touched upon in the debate. One hundred years ago, or thereabouts, Wales was experiencing immigration on a scale probably unsurpassed outside the United States of America. It is therefore not surprising that today the housing stock in Wales is older than the UK average. Of course, we acknowledge that houses have been improved, repaired and replaced by the thousand, by successive governments. Yet the Government's own housing condition survey acknowledges that a quarter of the housing stock in Wales is in poor condition and almost 80,000 houses are deemed unfit. There is a real substance to the demand voiced in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, for new or renovated houses to be available at a price or rent which is affordable by people whose weekly salary is well below the UK average. We have been told that Shelter has assessed that 40,000 people are homeless. That figure includes families with very young dependent children. Does the Welsh Office accept that assessment? What does the Welsh Office propose to do about it? It would be absurd for the Welsh Office to argue that it cannot come forward with a programme to meet this need. Perhaps the Minister will enlighten the House about how the Welsh Office intends to meet the need within the coming year.

I am mindful that there are also special housing requirements in rural Wales. These were illustrated in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, and we touched on the subject in a debate two years ago about rural Wales. I would accept that the current housing policy undertaken by Tai Cymru may well be along the right lines, except that the district authorities should be in the lead. But even if the policy is along the right lines, the funding is totally inadequate. I understand that Tai Cymru's allocation will enable it to build only 180 homes. That is a drop in the ocean.

Before I leave rural Wales, I should mention that I read with great interest the case for setting up a Welsh rural forum, broadly similar to the Scottish Rural Forum. By promoting improved co-ordination between the voluntary and statutory bodies in rural Wales, the potential contribution of both sectors would be fully exploited. The steering committee under the wise and experienced chairmanship of Sir Goronwy Daniel has drawn up a practical scheme, the running costs of which would be very modest. As I understand it, the scheme is being considered by the Welsh Office. Although it would not be a dramatic development, we very much hope that the department can help in the matter.

I move on now to consider health. One is struck by the fact that the number of the elderly will continue to increase throughout the decade. More could be done by the health authorities to redeploy their resources so that they can offer the elderly more actual treatment and at an earlier stage. That is an issue to which we shall return on another occasion. I was especially glad that my noble friend Lady White spoke about the inadequacy of the services for the disabled.

The quality of life for the vast majority of people depends upon jobs, housing, health and education. Those are the vital social areas which need to be strengthened and reinforced. However, we are today asking questions about the environment—and rightly so—which were not being asked in the golden days of the Coal Exchange and the South Wales Miners Federation. As the removal of the tips which have been scarring the face of South Wales for so long is moving apace, there is also a growing determination that modern industry which is coming to the area, and into Wales as a whole, should not pollute our streets and rivers and fill our worked-out quarries with industrial waste which can endanger health and harm the environment.

Like my noble friend Lord Morris, I too read in the Western Mail reports about the growing anxiety as regards the health of the semi-enclosed Irish Sea. I should be most grateful if the Minister can confirm whether Welsh Office officials are involved in discussions with the independent Liverpool University based Irish Sea Study Group. That would ensure that the department is always aware of the sensitive coastal areas in Wales which need protection.

Notwithstanding the intention of my noble friend Lord Morris to the contrary, I wish to say something about the Welsh language. The noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gwydir, and Lord Hooson, anticipated what I wish to say about the subject. It is true that throughout the centuries the order has been changing, but up until now the Welsh language has survived. Wales is a small nation, but the national language is still spoken by about half a million people. I fully support the plea made by the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, that further support must be made available for the teaching institutions. We want teachers to have access to modern teaching methods and technology. All those factors are important.

However, I very much hope that the Government will not under-estimate the power of legislative action to strengthen the Welsh language. A campaign has been underway since 1983 for a new Welsh language Act which would strengthen its status. Moreover, I have addressed many meetings throughout Wales in support of legislation. Five years ago two private Bills were published and 16 months ago the Welsh Language Board, which is the Government's standing advisory body on the Welsh language, forwarded to the Welsh Office a draft Bill which it had composed. Further, last December the board submitted a much improved draft to the Welsh Office which is now being considered by the department.

I am wondering whether the Minister can help us a little this evening. For example, can she enlighten us as to what steps the Welsh Office has already taken to examine that draft Bill in conjunction with Whitehall departments? I accept the fact that it will have to be discussed in consultation with such departments. However, I should be interested to know whether an inter-departmental group of officials has been established. If that is not the case, is it the intention to do so? Further, has this been the subject of discussions with the Lord Chancellor's Department and with other relevant departments? It would be much appreciated by many people in Wales if the Minister could give us an approximate indication of when the Government anticipate being in a position to make a public statement about their intentions, bearing in mind the fact that we are, as the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, said, racing against the clock. I should stress that the Welsh language is an issue upon which the Welsh Office can take the lead. Of course, I do not know whether it has been adequately consulted by other departments on the matter. But here is an area of policy where the Welsh Office must never be seen to be subordinate to Whitehall.

In conclusion, I must say that I listened with great interest and concern to the noted speech of my noble friend Lady White. I believe that she raised significant issues which will not go away.

7.37 p.m.

The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Baroness Trumpington)

My Lords, noble Lords will know by now that I have only recently become the spokesman in your Lordships' House for Wales. Although I fear that pronunciation of the Welsh language will always be my stumbling block—those noble Lords who heard me try to wish the House a merry Christmas in Welsh, certainly did not understand what I said; I shall therefore not do so again—I am delighted to have been appointed. I am taking every opportunity I can to familiarise myself with Wales and all things Welsh. I am also delighted to have this opportunity to reply to the debate introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Morris of Castle Morris, and to other noble Lords who have spoken through whose comments and observations my own knowledge has been deepened.

I listened with interest to the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady White. I should first express my gratitude to her for promising me a future welcome in the hills. It is for the Prime Minister to decide who is appointed to represent departments in this Chamber. As my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gwydir said in his kind speech, not all departments have Ministers in this House. I am sure that the noble Baroness will agree that Wales is fully represented by Welsh constituency Members in another place. We cannot all have the privilege of being born Welsh, or even half Welsh as I believe is the case with the noble Baroness, Lady White.

Baroness White

My Lords, I am sorry to intervene at this point, but did I understand the Minister to say that I was half Welsh? If so, I should point out to her that I have one Somersetshire great grandmother, and that is the only English blood that I have.

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, I stand corrected. But good-on the one Somerset great grandmother!

However, to return to my theme, the fact that not all of us had the privilege of being born Welsh does not mean that those of us who have the honour to represent Wales on this side of the House do not spend a great deal of time briefing ourselves on all things Welsh. My noble friend Lord Reay will be answering a Question on Wales next week. Both he and I tackle these duties with a great deal of vigour, as if we were Welsh.

I must tell the noble Lord, Lord Morris, that I have already renamed myself Jean, Jean, the slurry queen, and so his words hold absolutely no fears for me. The words "social infrastructure" caused my mind to boggle when I read them. All was clarified by the noble Lord in his witty speech about sewage. It has become evident from what he said that he is concerned about those aspects of the subject which relate to communications in their broadest sense, utilities and other similar infrastructure.

Strengths and weaknesses in transport and communications can so easily affect economic success and social conditions. In Wales, the Government's policy for roads is set out in Roads in Wales: Progress and Plans for the 1990s which was issued in April 1989 and updated in a supplement published last month.

Motorways and trunk roads are the direct responsibility of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State of Wales. They make up 5 per cent. of the total network and carry two-thirds of heavy goods traffic and 50 per cent. of light vehicle traffic using motorways, trunk roads and other primary routes. Local roads—95 per cent. of the network —are the responsibility of the local highway authorities (the county councils).

The specific objectives of the Welsh programme in the immediate future include: completion of the dualling of the A.55 in North Wales; completion of the Baglan-Lonlas section of the M.4 by 1995; selective improvements to the M.4, A.48 and A.40 in South Wales to deal with growing traffic congestion; and selective improvements on other routes, notably the A.470 and A.483 to give better North-South access.

Fifty per cent. central government assistance is given under the transport grant arrangements for major local authority improvement schemes. A total of 23 schemes is being supported in the current year, involving expenditure of £72 million. Indeed we expect to spend a further £183 million on our motorway and trunk road programme in the present financial year.

Since 1979 total expenditure on Welsh roads has exceeded £3 billion, with more than half of that on local authority roads. More is being spent on Welsh roads than at any time in the past. Over the next three years expenditure will continue at a high level and is planned to exceed £550 million. With regard to the second Severn Bridge crossing, which the noble Lord, Lord Morris, mentioned, as he will be aware proposals for a second Severn Bridge crossing are well advanced. The Bill seeking the necessary powers for its construction had a successful Second Reading in another place on 14th January and will proceed shortly to Committee. Subject to parliamentary approval, work could start by 1992 and the new crossing could be in use by about the end of 1995.

On the wider public transport infrastructure, Her Majesty's Government's view is that for the most part services should be provided on a fully commercial basis and without public support. Her Majesty's Government accept, however, that there are situations when that objective cannot be fully achieved. The Government subsidise the regional rail network through the public service obligation grant.

For their part, county councils are required to devise public transport policies for their areas and the noble Lord, Lord Hooson, may care to note that they can secure services to satisfy local needs where those are not met by commercial services. District councils also have the power to buy in bus services where they see the need for them. At the moment about three-quarters of the bus services in Wales are provided commercially.

The rail network in Wales is being considerably improved. Already South and South-West Wales enjoy a fast and frequent InterCity service with Paddington. In order to enhance the rail network, British Rail is planning to modernise the rolling stock serving Mid- and West Wales.

The noble Lords, Lord Morris and Lord Prys-Davies, asked me whether it is the intention of the Welsh Office to discuss with British Rail the possibility of Wales as a location for a major international freight terminal. They will be interested to know that the Welsh Office took an active role in the wide-ranging consultations leading to development of the plans identifying South Wales in that connection.

The Minister of State for Wales participated in a seminar organised by the Standing Conference on Regional Policy for South Wales designed to alert the business community to the opportunities for freight traffic through the Channel Tunnel. However, development of a terminal is entirely a matter for British Rail to decide in the light of the needs of its potential customers. I know that the Welsh Development Agency is actively considering how to interest private developers in the possibility of a rail freight terminal for South Wales, and I urge the business community in South Wales to give careful consideration to that matter and to the opportunities which could be lost by inaction now. A decision on the location of a terminal to service South Wales and the South-West will be made in about three months.

The noble Lord, Lord Morris, spoke about the Mid-Wales rail service. He absolved me from the need to provide an immediate answer to his detailed points. I shall write to him about them. Suffice it to say that British Rail is concerned about the service, and plans to introduce more modern rolling stock on its service in the rural areas of Mid- and West Wales are in hand.

The present condition of the utilities in Wales is also clearly a matter of concern to the noble Lord. Dwr Cymru (Welsh Water), the main water and sewerage undertaker in Wales, has recently begun an unprecedented 10-year investment programme during which it will, as agreed before privatisation, invest £1.8 billion—£500,000 a day, every day for 10 years. The programme will, among other things, ensure that our drinking water meets the stringent standards that the Government have set down. The noble Lord, Lord Morris, may care to know that I enjoyed a glass of bottled Welsh water in the Peers' Guest Room before entering the Chamber this evening.

In the first five years the emphasis will be on improving water treatment works, investing £200 million to bring works up to standard and meeting the undertakings that Welsh Water has given to the Secretary of State for Wales. A further £320 million will be spent on improving sewage treatment works and the sewerage network; and £70 million will be spent in this period on improvements to sea and estuarial outfalls. In the second five years the emphasis will shift from expenditure on treatment works to expenditure on the distribution system; £400 million will be spent on the water network; and a further £200 million on sewage.

The noble Lord, Lord Morris, asked me for statistics on the state of outfalls. Rather than go into the details on the state of individual outfalls sought by the noble Lord, I trust that he will have been satisfied by my remarks on the scale of investment that Welsh Water proposes for that activity.

I turn to some of the other utilities. British Gas which no one mentioned—why bother!—has 820,000 customers, served by almost 12,700 kilometres of pipeline. It is expanding its customer base by some 20,000 to 25,000 customers every year. That is an important point. Modern technology and increased efficiency are enabling the natural gas supply network to be extended to a significant number of new communities in Wales every year.

Turning to questions that I have been asked by your Lordships, I begin with the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, whose kindness in giving me prior warning is greatly appreciated. His words about the South Wales Miners Federation were moving and one felt very much what he felt about the end of an era.

The first of his questions concerned education. The English polytechnics and colleges were incorporated on 1st April 1989 and there is evidence that this independent status has improved their ability to respond quickly to new opportunities and strengthen their links with employers. The Secretary of State wants the Welsh institutions to compete on equal terms with their counterparts in England. After wide consultations on the recommendations of independent consultants concerning the future of the Polytechnic of Wales he has concluded that all the major Welsh institutions of higher education will be better able to meet the challenges of the future if they become independent bodies funded by the Welsh Office.

Under the present arrangements, local authority higher education is planned and detailed advice on the distribution of its funding is given by the Wales Advisory Body for Local Authority Higher Education. The small staff, numbering three full-time and one part-time personnel, are employed by the local authorities. Discussions are in train with a view to transferring these staff into the Welsh Office to continue and develop the work on which they are engaged. It is not anticipated that any further staff will need to be recruited.

The noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, and my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gwydir asked me about the Welsh language legislation. All noble Lords were concerned about the Welsh language in one way or another. I understand that the Welsh Language Board published its report on the Welsh language on 11th February. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Wales has said that he will consider the board's proposals very carefully. For the time being its proposals are being considered by officials within the Welsh Office, though they will consult other government departments as appropriate.

The board's proposals have considerable implications for all branches of government and it is therefore too soon to say when the Government will be in a position to respond to them. No decision has been taken as to whether further consultation on the board's proposals will be required, but I understand that it consulted a wide range of organisations during the course of last year.

My noble friend Lord Thomas asked me about Welsh language education grants. This reply may also serve to answer the noble Lord, Lord Hooson. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has announced that £1.7 million will be available as a Welsh language specific grant to local education authorities in 1991–92. A further £2.4 million in Welsh language grants will be available for other educational bodies in 1991–92. This figure represents an increase of almost 18 per cent. over this year's grant and will be used to support a number of initiatives such as teams of area teachers around the counties and the programme of translating textbooks to assist the introduction of the national curriculum in Welsh medium schools.

A further £2.7 million is being made available to voluntary organisations which provide additional assistance to the language. Therefore, total direct grant support for the language next year will be a record £6.8 million, an increase of 16.8 per cent. on this year.

Turning to financial support for the proposed Welsh rural forum, Ministers are aware of the proposals to set up this new organisation. I understand however that it has not yet been established and Ministers have received no request for financial support.

With regard to the needs of the homeless and the target for the provision of low cost housing, in accepting people as homeless it is impossible for local authorities to secure homes on the basis of people's individual aspirations. However, there is real progress both in the management of the 230,000 council properties in Wales and in the Government's determination to increase the housing association stock by over one-third by 1993–94.

Central government fully play their part by increasing resources available to deal with homelessness, seeking value for money on expenditure and providing guidance on best practice. This commitment can best be demonstrated by the fact that in 1990–91, eight Welsh authorities have been given supplementary credit approvals of over £2 million in total specifically for homelessness.

The noble Lord, Lord Hooson, spoke about discrimination against district councils in terms of housing. I am not certain what he had in mind so perhaps he will tell me afterwards. He implied that the Government had a sense of discrimination against district councils in terms of housing. District councils are the tier of local authority which has been vested with responsibilities. In this sphere, resources are directed to those authorities by central government, and they continue to be regarded as an important channel for providing and maintaining the housing stock.

On low-cost home ownership, it is very much a matter for individual local authorities to decide to use low-cost home ownership initiatives which are specifically targeted at first time buyers, including those in council accommodation and on waiting lists. Those who do so have found them to be successful.

Some authorities are developing schemes of their own which enable the subsidy to be passed on. My department is keen to assist local authorities which have recognised the need to undertake innovative schemes through the brokering of good practice and the development of new ideas. Special arrangements exist in Wales for authorities to use 100 per cent. of the capital receipts realised from such schemes, enabling them to recycle receipts for other low-cost home ownership schemes if they wish. On 20th February, the Secretary of State announced an additional £3 million which has been made available to rural authorities, much of which will be used for low-cost home ownership schemes.

Finally I turn to the Irish Sea and the subject of pollution. The Irish Sea Study Group was initiated in 1985 by the Royal Society of Arts to report on the environmental health of the Irish Sea. The group was co-ordinated by the University of Liverpool, as the noble Lord, Lord Prys-Davies, knows.

After an initial survey, four specialist groups were set up, including one on pollution. Each group produced a report and the reports were considered at a conference held in the Isle of Man last October at which the Welsh Office's chief planner was one of the speakers. Both this Government, through the Department of the Environment, and the Irish Government have helped fund the study group. The Irish Sea is an important component of the Welsh environment and the department will wish to develop as many links as it can with all those who contribute to its knowledge.

A great deal more could be said. I have done my best to answer all noble Lords' questions, but I shall carefully read through what has been said. Should I need to write to any noble Lords, they can be assured that I shall do so. In the meantime, tremendous advances have been made and will continue to be made with the infrastructure in Wales.