§ 2.37 p.m.
§ Lord Campbell of Croy asked Her Majesty's Government:
§ Whether the economic measures against Iraq, decided upon by the United Nations Security Council since 2nd August, appear to have been carried out by member states.
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, yes. The most recently available report from the United Nations secretariat 1188 indicates that 124 of the 159 member states have formally notified the United Nations of their compliance with United Nations Security Council Resolution 661 imposing economic sanctions on Iraq. The 35 states which have given no formal notification are mostly small states with no trade links with Iraq.
Lord Campbell of CroyMy Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for that reply. Does it not show that sanctions, even universally applied, would have taken a long time to shift Saddam Hussein? Will potential aggressors in future be more effectively deterred by the readiness—visible and improved—of the United Nations to take action, with armed forces if necessary?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, I entirely agree with my noble friend. Experience has indicated that however long sanctions were maintained, Saddam Hussein would not have given in to economic pressure alone. It is hoped that it has also shown to any other leader or nation with similar expansionist aspirations the opposition that it can expect to meet from the international community.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord the Leader of the House who, following our exchanges on the subject last week, informed me that humanitarian aid is being allowed, subject to the authorisation of the sanctions committee of the United Nations. Will the noble Lord confirm that sanctions will not be lifted until all the conditions laid down are complied with by the Iraqi Government?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, yes. In our view it is too soon to say how or when the sanctions regime against Iraq should be modified. However, we need first to see Iraqi compliance with the United Nations Security Council resolutions.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, I declare a personal interest in asking this question of the noble Lord the Minister who answers for the Government. If it appears that some of our prisoners of war have been tortured to death, is it the intention of the Government to introduce a War Crimes Bill in your Lordships' House?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, I cannot give any information at this moment about the Government's intention to introduce a War Crimes Bill. However, it is an urgent priority for us to secure the release of allied prisoners of war.
§ Lord MellishMy Lords, since Belgium did not contribute a single penny or a single man towards the war effort, and since she owes everything to this country, is she included in the list of those nations who were good enough and kind enough to apply economic sanctions?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, a number of cases of sanctions violations have been drawn to the attention of the sanctions committee. The chairman has sometimes been asked to take follow-up action. However, the proceedings of that committee are confidential.
§ Lord MayhewMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree that the fact that so many nations were prepared to co-operate in the sanctions effort is a tribute to the 1189 possible effectiveness of the Security Council? Is there a valuable precedent for the future? When the noble Lord states that they may not have caused Saddam Hussein to withdraw from Kuwait, is he stating that they had no effect? What studies are being made, perhaps by the United Nations secretariat, about the effectiveness of the sanctions?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, I was saying that sanctions were comprehensive and rigorously enforced for more than five months; yet, despite their effect on the Iraqi economy, there was no sign that they affected Saddam Hussein's resolve to hang on to Kuwait for as long as he could.
§ Lord Jenkin of RodingMy Lords, is it not clear, in view of the atrocities now becoming evident in Kuwait—perhaps more appropriate for the description "obscene" with which some newspapers have reacted to the war this morning—that sanctions should be continued in their full stringency not merely until Saddam Hussein agrees to pay compensation, but until in fact he has paid it?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, we believe that sanctions should be maintained for the time being. First, we need to see compliance by Iraq with the United Nations resolutions. Thereafter there should be a selective and progressive approach to the removal of sanctions.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, what evidence does the Minister have for using the word "never" in his initial answer? The Minister said that sanctions would never undermine Saddam Hussein or force him to leave Kuwait. What evidence has been provided regarding the effect of sanctions? At the beginning of sanctions the American Administration said that they would take at least 12 months to work. Why, and on what evidence, were they abandoned as a means of expelling Saddam Hussein after five months?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, Saddam Hussein evidently cared little for the suffering of his own people, not to mention the suffering of the people of Kuwait. There is no evidence that sanctions alone would have caused him to order his troops to withdraw from Kuwait and comply with the other requirements of the United Nations resolutions.
§ Lord Hatch of LusbyMy Lords, on what evidence did the Minister use the word "never" in his first reply?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, I stated our belief that sanctions alone would not have forced Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait.
The Earl of ClanwilliamMy Lords, does my noble friend agree that at no time have sanctions worked in any country?
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, did I understand the Minister correctly? Did he say, in response to the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, that sanction-busting countries are to have their names kept secret? If so, can he explain why?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, the sanctions committee is a United Nations creation. It is mandated by the United Nations Security Council to monitor the implementation of the resolutions. It is for the United Nations Security Council to determine the conditions in which it should do so.
§ Lord Mowbray and StourtonMy Lords, can my noble friend say with a simple yes or no whether the Kingdom of Jordan was one of the countries which gave an assurance that it was applying sanctions?
§ Lord Stoddart of SwindonMy Lords, in the light of the Minister's reply to my supplementary question and that of the noble Lord, Lord Mellish, will he press the Government to make representations to the United Nations that the names of sanction-busting countries be made public?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, we are satisfied with the assurances received from governments, including the neighbouring states of Iraq, that every possible effort is being made to comply with and enforce the embargo.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, will the Government give a categoric assurance that sanctions will not be removed with their consent until all our prisoners have been returned?
§ Lord ReayMy Lords, it is the decision of the Security Council that sanctions should remain in force until Iraq complies with the requirements of the various United Nations resolutions.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, will the Minister explain how the national or international interest is served by withholding the names of those countries that have not applied sanctions?